Another Cirrus 'chute deployment

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...

-snip-
That wing will have a higher
angle of attack than the other; it will stall without warning and the
airplane will immediately begin to roll into a spin, possibly even inverted.
-snip-

Remember, it's not really established in the spin until you've made at
least a couple of turns (it's all about inertia). A simple wing drop
and roll/yaw excursion is just a spin entry or incipient spin. The
question about the Cirrus' recovery characteristics is still open
IMHO. If you manage to get the airplane stalled and drop a wing in a
big way, will it still just fly out of the stall if you apply
aggressive forward stick? How about after a half turn? What about a
full turn?

While it's possible that the airplane will not recover from a
developed spin, that does not mean to me that one couldn't recover
from a stall-wing-drop-roll scenario with just an authoritative push
and roll to upright. (Ever crossed over from an upright to inverted
spin by using a 'normal' entry and then driving the nose through as
the wings roll knife-edge? If you're not positive on the controls, it
can just wallow along and fall out into a mushy dive.)

-Dave Russell
8KCAB

The old fashioned way works fine for me.... strap the 'chute to your
ass instead of the airplane. It makes the "pull or not to pull"
question easy (if you are in free-fall, pull).

"Dave Russell" wrote in message
om...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

-snip-
That wing will have a higher
angle of attack than the other; it will stall without warning and the
airplane will immediately begin to roll into a spin, possibly even
inverted.
-snip-

Remember, it's not really established in the spin until you've made at
least a couple of turns (it's all about inertia). A simple wing drop
and roll/yaw excursion is just a spin entry or incipient spin. The
question about the Cirrus' recovery characteristics is still open
IMHO. If you manage to get the airplane stalled and drop a wing in a
big way, will it still just fly out of the stall if you apply
aggressive forward stick? How about after a half turn? What about a
full turn?

While it's possible that the airplane will not recover from a
developed spin, that does not mean to me that one couldn't recover
from a stall-wing-drop-roll scenario with just an authoritative push
and roll to upright. (Ever crossed over from an upright to inverted
spin by using a 'normal' entry and then driving the nose through as
the wings roll knife-edge? If you're not positive on the controls, it
can just wallow along and fall out into a mushy dive.)


Right. It is not necessarily true that a stall will result in a spin. The
Cirrus requires considerable force to enter a spin. It can be done, as was
demonstrated, but it is not easy. I don't think it is far wrong to say that
some other planes would break up in flight if subjected to the same types of
forces. In this case the buffeting was so severe that the pilot probably had
little to no control over the airplane. Stalls are usually benign and the
ailerons remain effective throughout a normal stall.

Cirrus training now emphasizes using CAPS the moment that the airplane
enters a spiral or spin. The maneuver limitations say this:

Maneuver Limits

Aerobatic maneuvers, including spins, are prohibited.

.. Note .

Because the SR22 has not been certified for spin recovery, the Cirrus
Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) must be deployed if the airplane departs
controlled flight. Refer to Section 3 - Emergency Procedures, Inadvertent
Spiral/Spin Entry.

This airplane is certified in the normal category and is not designed for
aerobatic operations. Only those operations incidental to normal flight are
approved. These operations include normal stalls, chandelles, lazy eights,
and turns in which the angle of bank is limited to 60°.

Cirrus does have procedures for practicing and recovering from stalls:

Stalls

SR22 stall characteristics are conventional. Power-off stalls may be
accompanied by a slight nose bobbing if full aft stick is held. Power-on
stalls are marked by a high sink rate at full aft stick. Power-off stall
speeds at maximum weight for both forward and aft C.G. positions are
presented in Section 5 - Performance Data.

When practicing stalls at altitude, as the airspeed is slowly reduced, you
will notice a slight airframe buffet and hear the stall speed warning horn
sound between 5 and 10 knots before the stall. Normally, the stall is marked
by a gentle nose drop and the wings can easily be held level or in the bank
with coordinated use of the ailerons and rudder. Upon stall warning in
flight, recovery is accomplished by immediately by reducing back pressure to
maintain safe airspeed, adding power if necessary and rolling wings level
with coordinated use of the controls.

.. WARNING .

Extreme care must be taken to avoid uncoordinated, accelerated or abused
control inputs when close to the stall, especially when close to the ground.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...

Right. It is not necessarily true that a stall will result in a spin. The
Cirrus requires considerable force to enter a spin. It can be done, as was
demonstrated, but it is not easy. I don't think it is far wrong to say that
some other planes would break up in flight if subjected to the same types of
forces.

What?!?!

Last time I checked, the Cirrus was only certified to the same limits
as everybody else's airplanes. Why should it hang together better
than everyone else's? (And if you think they designed in an extra
3g's and didn't tell anybody about it, I've got a bridge to sell you.)

And why do the spins require "considerable force"? Force on what?
The wing is stalled (or very nearly so), meaning not too much stress
on them, at least. I bet one can pitch up to, say 30 degrees above
the horizon with a bunch of nose-up trim, then let go of everything
and she'll stall right out from under you with no pilot input at all!
Once you've got that down, try giving her a big boot full of left
rudder and hammer in the throttle just as she breaks. I'd bet she'll
do a very pretty spin entry from there.... 8- (And, btw, there's
really very little stress on the airframe when you do this. Otoh, it
might be stressful for the pilot.)

we had cirrus open house come to salt lake city and give some local CFI's a
test ride - talked to the test pilots and it was the same. You get in a
spin you pull the chute. Aircraft is not certified for spins (something
about aft CG)

I don't see the big deal - follow the POH. My question on the accident is
what was a pilot doing up there that high above 12,500 did he have oxygen?
Also he was close on the operation limits and if he was heavy (overloaded)
he could have easily gone in a stall/spin including heavy turbulence..if I
got in a spin yeah I *might* try and get out of the spin but I wouldn't
waste time pulling that chute.

in the end we'll just wait and see on the NTSB report (someone post it when
it shows up)

Matthew

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:07:51 GMT, "Matthew Chidester"
wrote:

My question on the accident is
what was a pilot doing up there that high above 12,500 did he have oxygen?
Also he was close on the operation limits and if he was heavy (overloaded)
he could have easily gone in a stall/spin including heavy turbulence.

The 310hp SR-22 17,500 foot ceiling is a certified ceiling not a
service ceiling. It is actually 500 feet less than the 200hp SR-20
ceiling, so I doubt that the problems with the plane were caused by
being close to it climb limit. I don't know whether that plane had
oxygen, but it is a factory option.

The 310hp SR-22 17,500 foot ceiling is a certified ceiling not a
service ceiling. It is actually 500 feet less than the 200hp SR-20
ceiling, so I doubt that the problems with the plane were caused by
being close to it climb limit. I don't know whether that plane had
oxygen, but it is a factory option.

huh I didn't know they had an option on oxygen - that's a LONG way down -
interesting, well like I said should be an interesting NTSB report thanks
for the info

"Matthew Chidester" wrote in message
news:rDX4d.16430$He1.12412@attbi_s01...
Also he was close on the operation limits and if he was heavy (overloaded)
he could have easily gone in a stall/spin including heavy turbulence

Why? He was (as has been pointed out in other posts in this thread) almost 3
miles AGL. If he was losing airspeed, point the nose down. Why would he
stall? I've been in a lot of turbulence (I live on the Colorado Front Range)
and it has never caused the airplane to come close to stall speed.

Michael

Michael 182 wrote:
"Matthew Chidester" wrote in message
news:rDX4d.16430$He1.12412@attbi_s01...

Also he was close on the operation limits and if he was heavy (overloaded)
he could have easily gone in a stall/spin including heavy turbulence


Why? He was (as has been pointed out in other posts in this thread) almost 3
miles AGL. If he was losing airspeed, point the nose down. Why would he
stall? I've been in a lot of turbulence (I live on the Colorado Front Range)
and it has never caused the airplane to come close to stall speed.

Michael

Well, I can't claim to have ever flown in severe turbulence, but my
sense is not that the turbulence causes you to lose airspeed and stall,
but that the correct way to handle this situation is to slow down enough
that you are likely to stall if a gust is severe enough to stress the
airframe. That's not to suggest that you want to end up in a spin, but
it seems preferable to stall and spin at altitude then to have parts of
the plane get ripped off. If I'm in a thunderstorm I'm going to make
sure my airspeed stays below Va.

--
David Rind

exactly you're in a climb for some reason and heavy turbulence hits - woops
late response wrong rudder input you could do it.. not likely but i've flown
and climbing at vx or even vy and you hit a gust, stall alarm goes and if
you are THAT high - on a hot day you could get in a stall

(I think anyway)