Question from a new flight student (whopping 7 hours!)

zatatime wrote:

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:16:20 -0600, Newps
wrote:


Yeah right. I'm at 1000 AGL, meanwhile there's idiots flying over the
airport at pattern altitude then leaving so they can get on their
precious 45 degree entry. Sorry your argumaent doesn't hold water.



Why would you leave the pattern to perform a 45 entry?

You're kidding right? You would not believe what some people go thru to
go out and get back on that 45.

You're kidding right? You would not believe what some people go thru to
go out and get back on that 45.

I've got to say that I've honestly never seen anyone leave the pattern just
to re-enter on a 45.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I've got to say that I've honestly never seen anyone leave the pattern just
to re-enter on a 45.


I do sometimes, though I come over the airport 1000 feet above pattern
altitude. It's the standard "strange field approach", and it's also how you
see the wind sock or segmented circle. Granted AWOS and GPS makes a lot of
this obsolete, but radios don't make the plane fly.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

I've got to say that I've honestly never seen anyone leave the pattern
just
to re-enter on a 45.


I do sometimes, though I come over the airport 1000 feet above pattern
altitude.

Maybe I misunderstand the original statement, but the procedure you describe
doesn't have you leaving the pattern in order to re-enter on the 45. You
weren't in the pattern in the first place, since (by your own statement) you
were ABOVE the pattern.

I often overfly the airport, head out and come back on the 45. But I can't
recall a single instance when I was actually already on a legitimate leg in
the traffic pattern, made a turn away from the pattern for the purpose of
positioning myself on the 45, for the further purpose of re-entering the
pattern. That just sounds silly to me.

Pete

.... but the procedure you describe
doesn't have you leaving the pattern in order
to re-enter on the 45. [...] you
were ABOVE the pattern.


Correct. I was expanding a bit.

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

... but the procedure you describe
doesn't have you leaving the pattern in order
to re-enter on the 45. [...] you
were ABOVE the pattern.


Correct. I was expanding a bit.

Maybe you can expand just a little more? You wrote, in response to the
statement "I've honestly never seen anyone leave the pattern just to
re-enter on a 45", the words "I do sometimes".

Do you, or do you not, ever leave the pattern just to re-enter on a 45? You
seem to have said that you do, but the example you gave was not an example
of you doing so.

Honestly, I can't say it matters one way or the other...but I'd at least
like to get straight what it is you said you do.

Pete

Maybe you can expand just a little more? You wrote, in response to the
statement "I've honestly never seen anyone leave the pattern just to
re-enter on a 45", the words "I do sometimes".

Do you, or do you not, ever leave the pattern just to re-enter on a 45?


No, I do not. I misspoke. I enter above the pattern as I later stated.

What I did with the words was expand the definition of "pattern" to include not
only the region at an appropriate altitude, but also the regions above and
below to some degree. Since the discussion included variations in what is
percieved as pattern altituted, I did not think this too much of a nonce
expansion for the purposes of the post.

I'll agree that 1000 feet is not "somewhat" above TPA, but if one were from the
days of four course ranges g,d,r (and thought the pattern were 800 AGL, given
no mention of TPA in the AF/D), and because of a cloud deck, cheated a bit
(coming in at 800 feet above what he thought was TPA, making it 1600 AGL) at an
airport whose TPA was actually 1200 AGL but still not mentioned in the AF/D),
he'd be only 400 feet above the real TPA on the overhead and out to the 45.
This is "somewhat" above.

Somebody a little high as she's coming in to one of the legs (say 1350 AGL)
might find herself not too far from the bloke who thinks he's a thousand feet
above. An altimeter setting from a different airport (if the destination has
none) might increase the pucker factor even more.

I'll grant that 800 AGL undocumented in the AF/D is probably more common for
historical reasons than an undocumented 1200 AGL pattern, but the principle is
the same. Fly as precisely as you can, but be aware that there are sources of
variance that can pile up. I'm not even counting the squirrel chasers who
arrive overhead at their cruise altitude (1000 AGL) before seeing the airport.

So, I did not think it unreasonable to include discussion of a proper 45 entry
in the discussion about variances in TPA and folks who come in at pattern
altitude overhead, looking for the 45.

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Jay Honeck wrote:
You're kidding right? You would not believe what some people go thru to
go out and get back on that 45.


I've got to say that I've honestly never seen anyone leave the pattern just
to re-enter on a 45.

Let me be more clear. Rwy 9/27 is in use. You are approaching from the
NE, the dead side of the pattern if you will. In this situation I will
always enter at midfield, on the crosswind, unless traffic does not
permit. I can usually always get in on the midfield crosswind, worst
case I turn upwind and fall in behind someone else. This is very rare.
It is not uncommon for others to enter just like me except they will
then make a right turn(approax 45 degrees) and fly away from the pattern
on a southwesterly heading, into the face of other traffic entering on
the 45, fly out a couple miles and then do a 180 for the sole purpose of
entering the pattern on the 45. These people are nuts

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:42:49 -0600, Newps wrote:

It is not uncommon for others to enter just like me except they will
then make a right turn(approax 45 degrees) and fly away from the pattern
on a southwesterly heading, into the face of other traffic entering on
the 45, fly out a couple miles and then do a 180 for the sole purpose of
entering the pattern on the 45. These people are nuts

Yes, they are. But so are you, declaring that "nope" it doesn't bother
you that you may create a hazard by flyiing at a non-standard altitude
in the pattern.

The existence of stupid pilots is not a reason for you to behave
stupidly, but a reason for you to be even more punctilious in doing
the expected thing. In the case you describe, there is one hazard at
the airport. But you are declaring your right to add a second one!


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 06:08:22 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:

The existence of stupid pilots is not a reason for you to behave
stupidly, but a reason for you to be even more punctilious in doing
the expected thing. In the case you describe, there is one hazard at
the airport. But you are declaring your right to add a second one!


Thank you. Stated better than I could have, but my sentiments
exactly.

z