What can I log as XC time?

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

The question was whether he can log XC time when flying locally (ie take
off and land at the same airport). It doesn't matter whether that
airport happens to be his normal home airport or not. If you do not land
at a point farther than 50NM from where you took off, you cannot count
that as xc experience for most ratings.

That wasn't really my question. My question, phrased
differently, was: what is an "original point of departure"
under 61.1's definition of "Cross Country Time" used "for
the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience
requirements."

You seem to imply that either (a) landing, or (b) staying
overnight or (c) staying multiple nights changes your
original point of departure.

In question (a) I wondered if I could keep my hangar airport
as my original point of departure for a week long trip to a
50+ nm new location near my place of residence.

Ini (b) I wondered what happens if I'm flying a long XC to
Oshkosh or California, but don't manage 50 nm of progress
some days. Is the entire flight loggable as XC?

To put this into context,

1) It's pretty clear that simply landing does not reset your
OPOD, so you can get gas 25 nm out on a 50nm+ flight and log
all of it.

2) The FAQ says the student could get stuck for a few days
due to weather, and still log all of the time without
changing his OPOD.

3) The FAQ also says a student can even fly 26 nm south "for
the purpose of repositioning the aircraft" call that airport
his new OPOD then fly 50+ nm north (but only 25+ north of
his first airport) and log THAT as XC.

The "original point of departure" is up to you to determine. When you
terminate whatever you are calling a "flight", you change your OPD. But what
you call a "flight" is also up to you. A flight can consist of multiple legs
over many days.

What the FAQ is silent on is, in the case of repositioning for the purpose of
making a cross country flight, whether the repositioning leg (before the new
OPD) can be counted as XC time. I would say yes, since a repositioning leg
after the 50nm XC could be, and there's no real difference between the two.

One of the maddening things about the FAQ and about answers from the FAA that
I've read is that they very carefully don't answer the question that was asked,
while filling the page with lots of text.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Bob wrote:



In question (a) I wondered if I could keep my hangar airport
as my original point of departure for a week long trip to a
50+ nm new location near my place of residence.

Ini (b) I wondered what happens if I'm flying a long XC to
Oshkosh or California, but don't manage 50 nm of progress
some days. Is the entire flight loggable as XC?


Don't make this more difficult than it has to be. It doesn't matter
where you live, where the plane is kept, where you get gas. If you take
off and then at some point during the flight land at a point that is
more than 50 miles away that is a cross country. Land every 5 miles if
you wish but once you land more than 50 miles from the original point it
becomes a cross country. I personally keep different days flights as
seperate but you could count a 10 day trip, flying each day, as one long
cross country trip for logging purposes.

Newps wrote:

Don't make this more difficult than it has to be. It doesn't matter
where you live, where the plane is kept, where you get gas. If you take
off and then at some point during the flight land at a point that is
more than 50 miles away that is a cross country.

You're trying to make it simple, but then you say "if you
take off" and then say "at some point during the flight" but
you don't tell me what you think a "flight" is or a "take
off."

Land every 5 miles if
you wish but once you land more than 50 miles from the original point it
becomes a cross country.

And here you refer to the "original point." A "take off"
can't reset the "original point of departure" Staying
overnight can't reset the OPOD. So what does?

Let me rephrase the first question again. I consider my
hangar airport to be my original point of departure for a
multi-day (1 week) XC "flight" in which I just happened to
land and stay at an airport near my home. I flew some time
in that local area more than 50 nm from the hangar airport,
but less than 50 nm from the airport where I tied down for
the week. I considered all that time to be one long flight
more than 50 nm from home, requiring the same skills for
flying there that it took to navigate there from my OPOD at
the hangar airport. Question 1 was: can I log it all as XC
time? If not, why not? Quite honestly, the flying I did
there required far more XC skill than flying 51 nm from my
hangar airport.

I'll rephrase question 2, also. I'm flying from my home to
Oshkosh and fly 300 miles, then land. The next day I want
to fly another 300 miles towards my goal, but weather forces
me to land 25 farther along. I consider the second day to
be part of a single long XC flight to Oshkosh. Should I
(can I) log the 25 mile stretch as XC time? If on day 3 I
have to turn back to the day 2 airport because a front
prevents my continued progess towards Oshkosh, can I (should
I) log that as XC time?

The answer depends on my OPOD, and my question is basically
what is it legal to call an OPOD and what is it not. In
case 1 I had reached a destination (near my home) but hadn't
fulfilled the purpose of the flight or reached my "true
destination" (visiting other airports near my home. In case
2 I was still trying to reach my destination (Oshkosh).

What factors can I use to decide if I should "reset" my
OPOD. We all agree just landing doesn't reset it, and the
FAA says a new day doesn't reset it. Does anything reset
it, or is it entirely up to me? Where do those here think
the reset should occur?

I personally keep different days flights as
seperate but you could count a 10 day trip, flying each day, as one long
cross country trip for logging purposes.

So you'd see it as accepatble to log all the time in both
cases as XC?

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:48:59 -0400, Bob
wrote:

I personally keep different days flights as
seperate but you could count a 10 day trip, flying each day, as one long
cross country trip for logging purposes.

So you'd see it as accepatble to log all the time in both
cases as XC?


I don't think he's considering using the trip for a certificate or
rating, so the 50nm rule doesn't apply to that situation.

z

You're trying to make it simple, but then you say "if you
take off" and then say "at some point during the flight" but
you don't tell me what you think a "flight" is or a "take
off."


I'm not the OR but...

"take off" means to leave the ground and begin flying. "Flight" is defined by
you, but presumably begins at a takeoff and ends at a landing. The landing
cannot occur before the takeoff. Other than that, what happens in between is
irrelevant. You can even land, get out of the plane, let somebody else fly the
plane for a while without you (logging that as a separate flight) and then
continue your original flight, without resetting your OPD. It's like Michigan
or Pakistan - not contiguous but one entity.


Q1
I consider my
hangar airport to be my original point of departure for a
multi-day (1 week) XC "flight" in which I just happened to
land and stay at an airport near my home. I flew some time
in that local area more than 50 nm from the hangar airport,
but less than 50 nm from the airport where I tied down for
the week. I considered all that time to be one long flight


In that case it =is= one long flight.

can I log it all as XC time?

Yes. I probably wouldn't (in which case I'd split my "flight" into three parts
for clarity to me), but under some cicrumstances I might log it all as XC.


I'll rephrase question 2, also. I'm flying from my home to
Oshkosh and fly 300 miles, then land. The next day I want
to fly another 300 miles towards my goal, but weather forces
me to land 25 farther along. I consider the second day to
be part of a single long XC flight to Oshkosh. Should I
(can I) log the 25 mile stretch as XC time? If on day 3 I
have to turn back to the day 2 airport because a front
prevents my continued progess towards Oshkosh, can I (should
I) log that as XC time?

The answer depends on my OPOD, and my question is basically
what is it legal to call an OPOD and what is it not.


Yes, and yes. The OPD is entirely up to you. What you call a "flight" is also
entirely up to you. You can reset your OPD any time you like.

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Bob wrote:

Newps wrote:


Don't make this more difficult than it has to be. It doesn't matter
where you live, where the plane is kept, where you get gas. If you take
off and then at some point during the flight land at a point that is
more than 50 miles away that is a cross country.


You're trying to make it simple, but then you say "if you
take off" and then say "at some point during the flight" but
you don't tell me what you think a "flight" is or a "take
off."

You're kidding right? A flight is anything you want it to be. And
you're not seriously asking what a takeoff might be are you Mr. Clinton?

Newps wrote:

You're kidding right? A flight is anything you want it to be. And
you're not seriously asking what a takeoff might be are you Mr. Clinton?

I knew I'd get an answer like this when I wrote it. I was
emphasizing how difficult it is to figure out what a
regulation means and trying to pin you down.

The point of my question was to ask what *you* (and others
here) think it means and what you think the *FAA* thinks it
means. Telling me "A flight is anything you want it to be"
implies that I can log almost everything I've ever flown as
XC time during one long "flight." I don't think the FAA
would agree regardless of my personal opinion, and their
opinion has more weight than mine does. Even if I think it
was all one long flight, I don't think a DPE will. There
must be some guidelines on this, and that's what I was
trying to get to.

Bob wrote in
:

Newps wrote:

You're kidding right? A flight is anything you want it to be. And
you're not seriously asking what a takeoff might be are you Mr.
Clinton?

I knew I'd get an answer like this when I wrote it. I was
emphasizing how difficult it is to figure out what a
regulation means and trying to pin you down.

The point of my question was to ask what *you* (and others
here) think it means and what you think the *FAA* thinks it
means. Telling me "A flight is anything you want it to be"
implies that I can log almost everything I've ever flown as
XC time during one long "flight." I don't think the FAA
would agree regardless of my personal opinion, and their
opinion has more weight than mine does. Even if I think it
was all one long flight, I don't think a DPE will. There
must be some guidelines on this, and that's what I was
trying to get to.





I personally would not log a flight, nor allow my student to log a
flight as xc, if we did not land at an airport farther than 50NM from
our home base without stopping at an intermediate point, ie., landing
every 25 miles does not count as xc, and flying a 50NM leg within a 25NM
radius of our home airport does not count as xc. I know this is not what
the regs say, but I hold myself and my students to a higher standard. I
also believe this was the intent of the regs, even though the exact
wording leaves room for interpretation.



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When Rutan did the around the world with no refueling I wonder if he logged
it as XC? Makes you wonder....