How to get Aviation Position - Engineer/Business

(Dave Jacobowitz) wrote in message . com...

That dude ****ed me off. I'm sure you'll find more energized people
out there. I be the vibe a company like Eclipse is more entrepeneurial
and exciting (if risky). Or Garmin, Avidyne, etc.

Good luck,
Dave Jacobowitz
jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com


Doesn't surprise me... I can't stand the mentality seen at large
companies like that. They are clueless in many ways. Aviation
industry dead? Maybe if you're a pilot trying to get into the majors
next year.

I have a degree in mechanical engineering and work for a small design
company, so I can sympathize with your situation. We don't do any EE
work unfortunately...

If I was a EE I would definitely look into avionics. I'd also check
out some of the smaller aviation companies like Adam Aircraft and
Eclipse. Those are probably riskier, but I'd imagine they could also
be pretty fun to work for.

I have a degree in Electrical Engineering, a bunch of graduate study in
the field, a
fair amount of software experience, and a Masters of Science in Business
just to complete the lobotomy.

I live in the Baltimore-DC area, and desperately want to change careers
into
the aviation industry. I'm enjoy my schooling, just not the field that I
work in.
In fact, I'd like to keep a position that relies on my skills because it
is what
I'm best at.


Gamin seems to always be hiring some type of engineer

http://www.garmin.com/aboutGarmin/jobs/

Dean,

Wow, your experience is definitely an eye opener. I think both your
and Toly's response are both good ones, and point out the wisdom of
not getting involved in aviation. And in fact, it had occurred to me
that the guy from Boeing was doing me a favor, even if it was a
disappointing one.

What to do for a career a tricky question, one that I continue to
struggle with. In the meantime, I have a career, the pay is good, but
I don't have the passion for it that I'd like.

I think the idea of finding something that I really did care about
will always hold some allure for me, and I probably will be willing to
work for "a little" less -- though I may be kidding myself about how
big a little might be!

And then there is always the dream of somehow having my own succesful
aviation-related company. It's hard to kill, even though I know that
"the easiest way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with
a large one."

You guys have injected a valuable note of sobriety into the
conversation, though.

-- dave

(Dean Wilkinson) wrote in message om...
Be careful what you wish for...

I left a good EE design job at HP in Feb 2002 to work for a
Boise-based avionics company. I designed an interface box for their
EFIS system doing all of the system design, schematic design, board
layout, firmware, DO-178B design documentation, build and integration,
and test management solo. The box I designed was granted TSO approval
in October 2003.

I was underpaid, had no 401k, was poorly treated by my management, and
generally un-appreciated. While I was there, two of my co-workers in
the marketing department died in a plane crash, and my boss who was
the sole survivor and was not the PIC was forced out of the company by
his partners two weeks after the accident while he was still
recovering from surgery on his leg.

These same "nice guys" who back-stabbed their partner made my life
hell starting in January 2003. I would have left sooner if I hadn't
had a mortgage and a family to support, but I finally landed a job
back at HP in September of 2003.

I started my career at Boeing and had worked there for 8 years. My
Boeing experience working on the 777 was one of my best working
experiences, while the time I spent working at this other avionics
company was the absolute worst of my career.

Just because it looks like fun doesn't mean it is the best thing for
you to do. Be careful and do due-diligence before you jump into an
aviation company just because you think it will be fun. Odds are that
they won't compensate you as well as a commercial electronics company
because they consider it a "privilege" to work on aviation related
products and will try to take advantage of your enthusiasm. That
isn't to say that all of the companies in this industry are that way,
but I think that you will find that they aren't rare either...

Best Regards,

Dean

(Dave Jacobowitz) wrote in message . com...
I tried this myself this summer, with no success. I also have a EE/CE
background with ten years experience in the semiconductor industry as
a circuit designer, chip architect, field applications engineer
(sales), and some managerial experience, too. (alas, no business
education). I have PP-ASEL with IR.

Anyway, I have no family or spouse, so taking the summer off was
eminently doable, and while I was having fun doing various things, I
also mounted a campaign to find a job in aviation, similarly, in some
sort of engineering/technical marketing role. I wanted to stay out of
defense.

I looked at airframe companies, avionics manufacturers primarily.

Well, lots of resumes went out and even a few phonecalls, but I never
got anywhere with it. It was a painfully disappointing experience. I
don't know if aviation-related business just aren't highering, or I
was simply unable to convince hiring managers that my skills in the
chip business might be transferable. (managers in the twenty-first
century seem even less imaginative than in the last)

Partly, I think I could have been more tenacious about the search. I
gave up and went back to my old business after the summer. I could
have kept going, and maybe should have. Also, I should have continued
to try to make contacts at companies, even if I had to result to cold
calling and making a general pest of myself.

I do remember one particularly memorably phonecall with a senior
executive at Boeing, that of all people, my mom helped me get through
the mom-network. For one full hour I got nothing but an earful of how
aviation is a dead-end industry, it's not a good time to pursue a
career in same, don't get it, everyone is getting out, you won't be
developed, you'll be dumped when the company's needs change,
everything is being outsourced, Boeing is out of the aircraft business
and is not only an integrator, etc, etc. Talk about depressing! This
guy had had a 30 year career at the company, too. Seems he did
alright.

That dude ****ed me off. I'm sure you'll find more energized people
out there. I be the vibe a company like Eclipse is more entrepeneurial
and exciting (if risky). Or Garmin, Avidyne, etc.

Good luck,
Dave Jacobowitz
jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com


"Gary G" wrote in message ...
Hi folks,

Looking for some advise

This might seem strange.
I'm one of those guys who didn't have much "vision" earlier on in life in terms
of what I wanted to do. I got plenty-o-schooling, but feel now, nearing age 37, that
I didn't make the "best choices" in terms of a career that makes me happy.

I have a degree in Electrical Engineering, a bunch of graduate study in the field, a
fair amount of software experience, and a Masters of Science in Business
just to complete the lobotomy.

I live in the Baltimore-DC area, and desperately want to change careers into
the aviation industry. I'm enjoy my schooling, just not the field that I work in.
In fact, I'd like to keep a position that relies on my skills because it is what
I'm best at.

I'm very interested in Product/Project Management and or Business Development
or Marketing in the Aviation Industry. (Less defense and civil and consumer).
However, I'm not going to limit it! I have excellent communication skills (although
my typing is pathetic), and one fantastic attitude.

Oh - I'm a student pilot who intends to get my PPL by next fall.

How in the he!! do I look to get into that area.
I'd be willing to move, but would like to exhaust opportunities in the major
DC and Baltimore regions first.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
(Should you actually help me find a job, I'll make sure you get one fantastic REWARD! Ha!
I call it a finder's fee, but it won't be a just a dinner!)

Thanks to all who contribute to this fantastic newsgroup (I only found it about
3 months ago).

Regards,

Gary

With all that said, I found a guy who will probably end up as my instructor.
He got a Finance degree, worked for good money for a number of years,
and decided it was so boring and unexciting, he saved up $ and went
to ATP in Florida.
Now he makes virtualyl no money with a Flight School and says he is excited
to get up every morning and fly/teach.
He's doing the usual - building hours for the next step up from super-below-minimum-wage-
with-very-inconsistent-hours-and-wkr
to just-under-minimum-wage-but-more-steady-work-with-no-control-of-his-schedule.

In any event, he says he's happier.

But, he has no wife and kids (like I do).
And he's 10 years my junior.

I worked for 1 1/2 years at IBM Federal Systems in Maryland as an intern
on the "New Super Duper Aire Traffic Control System" that never materialized
back in the early 90's.
What I saw (generally speaking) was a vast number of career federal contract employees
who made a lot of money, generally were frustrated and didn't like their jobs
or prospects, but wouldn't leave because the money was too good.
Nobody but 2 critical specialist in my department saw this being their future.
(2 folks were very valuable mathematicians doing reliability modelling and had
developed their own methods - very impressive - they lived the stuff
and were doing exactyl what they wanted to do.)
The rest just saw this as another 2-4 years of work until they could find
something meaningful. . . .

I don't want that. I really don't. Now I'm a bit scared!
I'm just old enough to be "senior" level, and just old enough
to not be considered for positions where the person is "developed".
And, many say "You've done great, but you just haven't worked in
our area, so your experience isn't specific enough . . .blah blah blah.:

I'm going to kick some of these folks ass (figuratively speaking) when
I find my next job "that I really want".
And I really want it to be aviation-related.
(So I guess I have to take a cut in pay, eh?) Ha!

Gary G wrote: (edited)
I have a degree in Electrical Engineering, a bunch of graduate study
in the field, a
fair amount of software experience, and a Masters of Science in Business
just to complete the lobotomy.

I'm very interested in Product/Project Management and or Business Development
or Marketing in the Aviation Industry. (Less defense and civil and consumer).
However, I'm not going to limit it! I have excellent communication skills (although
my typing is pathetic), and one fantastic attitude.

Oh - I'm a student pilot who intends to get my PPL by next fall.

I'd be willing to move, but would like to exhaust opportunities in the major
DC and Baltimore regions first.

Hi Gary,

I'm the webmaster for Adam Aircraft (http://adamaircraft.com ), which
someone else mentioned as a possibilty. I work as a consultant; my
husband works for them full time as their CIO. They have two planes in
development, an inline twin (the A500) and a business jet (the A700).
If you check their web site regularly you'll see a variety of job
openings posted. Even if you don't see the exact job you want, it might
pay to fill out an application. They are in Englewood and Pueblo, CO.
Career Opportunities can be found under the Company tab.

Valerie Magee
Webmaster, Adam Aircraft http://adamaircraft.com

Jay,

Last time I was down that way, which was a few months ago, it was still there. :-)

Dave


"Jay Beckman" wrote in message news:ZmBfd.18891$SW3.13268@fed1read01...
"David B. Cole" wrote in message
m...
I worked at Lockheed in Moorestown for four years and they don't do
aeronautics there. Moorestown focuses primarily on shipboard systems,
namely Aegis and weapon systems for the next generation of Navy ships.

Dave


Hey Dave,

I used to work for a production company near Philly where we edited down the
film/video footage from Aegis-class tests and shakedown cruises for RCA Sea
Systems.

Which leads to the question:

Does the USS Rancocas (aka the "Cornfield Cruiser") still exist?

Jay Beckman
Chandler, AZ
PP-ASEL

Dave,

It doesn't hurt to keep looking while maintaining your current job.
Aviation can be a decent career choice. It has been for me. Personally,
I'd be miserable working in any other field -- OK, sometimes I'm miserable
anyway, but it's the aviation that keeps me going.

I've been around aviation all my life. Aero degree, USAF career, then into
civilian avionics. Small company (took a pay cut, but it was a fun job),
bought by bigger company (better pay and benefits). They eventually got out
of aviation.

Ended up at Rockwell Collins, where a year later I was promoted to an
engineering manager position. Still there 5 years later, and the pay and
benefits are pretty good (my opinion, others may differ).

Lessons?

Aviation is a small community. Getting in and established is the hard part.
Once in, it's easy to stay employed if you're decent at networking.

Don't try to get the perfect job from day one. It's a mobile industry. Get
your foot in the door and then move laterally (or up, or over). Fact is,
most of the management, marketing, etc. type jobs are filled internally (or
from competitors.)

One bit of reality. Aviation is a cyclical business. It's ramping up these
days after a few bad years. It'll get better, and it'll probably get worse.
The ones that love it, survive the bad times. The ones that don't, get out
of aviation as soon as things start to get rough.

Tips? Well, we do all our recruiting thru the web. A listing on our web is
for one position only. Applying for a position sends your resume/app
directly to the hiring manager. It won't get you considered for any other
position. You have to apply for each one. It's a little more work for you,
but it is more likely to pay off. You can tailor your resume to each
specific job, and it won't get lost on some HR recruiter's desk. Other
companies may be different and smaller companies are more likely to be
flexible.

If you think they won't take chances with your chip background, it's not
that they lack imagination. It's quite likely they got a few primo
candidates who've been doing exactly what they want. Maybe you need to be
creative. Rather than go for marketing, try for that industrial engineer or
test engineer job. You did process control and automated testing in the
chip business, didn't you?

I (and most managers) hire for skills and work ethic/motivation. You need
both. If I don't get any candidates with the skills I want, I'll fall back
to fundamental engineering skills and motivation, figuring a motivated
person with good basic skills can learn what I need. It comes down to
finding someone who can be productive very quickly.

Good luck. Life's to short to spend it doing something you don't like.

Gerry


"Dave Jacobowitz" wrote in message
om...
Dean,

Wow, your experience is definitely an eye opener. I think both your
and Toly's response are both good ones, and point out the wisdom of
not getting involved in aviation. And in fact, it had occurred to me
that the guy from Boeing was doing me a favor, even if it was a
disappointing one.

What to do for a career a tricky question, one that I continue to
struggle with. In the meantime, I have a career, the pay is good, but
I don't have the passion for it that I'd like.

I think the idea of finding something that I really did care about
will always hold some allure for me, and I probably will be willing to
work for "a little" less -- though I may be kidding myself about how
big a little might be!

And then there is always the dream of somehow having my own succesful
aviation-related company. It's hard to kill, even though I know that
"the easiest way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with
a large one."

You guys have injected a valuable note of sobriety into the
conversation, though.

-- dave

(Dean Wilkinson) wrote in message
om...
Be careful what you wish for...

I left a good EE design job at HP in Feb 2002 to work for a
Boise-based avionics company. I designed an interface box for their
EFIS system doing all of the system design, schematic design, board
layout, firmware, DO-178B design documentation, build and integration,
and test management solo. The box I designed was granted TSO approval
in October 2003.

I was underpaid, had no 401k, was poorly treated by my management, and
generally un-appreciated. While I was there, two of my co-workers in
the marketing department died in a plane crash, and my boss who was
the sole survivor and was not the PIC was forced out of the company by
his partners two weeks after the accident while he was still
recovering from surgery on his leg.

These same "nice guys" who back-stabbed their partner made my life
hell starting in January 2003. I would have left sooner if I hadn't
had a mortgage and a family to support, but I finally landed a job
back at HP in September of 2003.

I started my career at Boeing and had worked there for 8 years. My
Boeing experience working on the 777 was one of my best working
experiences, while the time I spent working at this other avionics
company was the absolute worst of my career.

Just because it looks like fun doesn't mean it is the best thing for
you to do. Be careful and do due-diligence before you jump into an
aviation company just because you think it will be fun. Odds are that
they won't compensate you as well as a commercial electronics company
because they consider it a "privilege" to work on aviation related
products and will try to take advantage of your enthusiasm. That
isn't to say that all of the companies in this industry are that way,
but I think that you will find that they aren't rare either...

Best Regards,

Dean

Hi Gerry,

I have some friends working at Collins, as well as at Honeywell.

If I were to work in aviation again, I would definitely focus on the
larger, more established companies like Collins and Honeywell (who I
dealt with while working at Boeing), rather than a small startup like
the C-word company that I worked for in Idaho. I'm sure you can guess
who they are...

The problem is that I just don't want to relocated from Idaho. That
limits my options, so I have to accept working for a consumer
electronics company rather than an avionics company.

I was on the LCD Technology team at Boeing, and then on the AIMS
Display System project team for the 777. I worked on Field Emission
Displays at Micron, and Laser Printers at HP before deciding to work
for our local avionics company, but quickly discovered that they were
a dysfunctional organization. Back to Laser Printers for now...

Best Regards,

Dean Wilkinson

"Gerry Caron" wrote in message m...
Dave,

It doesn't hurt to keep looking while maintaining your current job.
Aviation can be a decent career choice. It has been for me. Personally,
I'd be miserable working in any other field -- OK, sometimes I'm miserable
anyway, but it's the aviation that keeps me going.

I've been around aviation all my life. Aero degree, USAF career, then into
civilian avionics. Small company (took a pay cut, but it was a fun job),
bought by bigger company (better pay and benefits). They eventually got out
of aviation.

Ended up at Rockwell Collins, where a year later I was promoted to an
engineering manager position. Still there 5 years later, and the pay and
benefits are pretty good (my opinion, others may differ).

Lessons?

Aviation is a small community. Getting in and established is the hard part.
Once in, it's easy to stay employed if you're decent at networking.

Don't try to get the perfect job from day one. It's a mobile industry. Get
your foot in the door and then move laterally (or up, or over). Fact is,
most of the management, marketing, etc. type jobs are filled internally (or
from competitors.)

One bit of reality. Aviation is a cyclical business. It's ramping up these
days after a few bad years. It'll get better, and it'll probably get worse.
The ones that love it, survive the bad times. The ones that don't, get out
of aviation as soon as things start to get rough.

Tips? Well, we do all our recruiting thru the web. A listing on our web is
for one position only. Applying for a position sends your resume/app
directly to the hiring manager. It won't get you considered for any other
position. You have to apply for each one. It's a little more work for you,
but it is more likely to pay off. You can tailor your resume to each
specific job, and it won't get lost on some HR recruiter's desk. Other
companies may be different and smaller companies are more likely to be
flexible.

If you think they won't take chances with your chip background, it's not
that they lack imagination. It's quite likely they got a few primo
candidates who've been doing exactly what they want. Maybe you need to be
creative. Rather than go for marketing, try for that industrial engineer or
test engineer job. You did process control and automated testing in the
chip business, didn't you?

I (and most managers) hire for skills and work ethic/motivation. You need
both. If I don't get any candidates with the skills I want, I'll fall back
to fundamental engineering skills and motivation, figuring a motivated
person with good basic skills can learn what I need. It comes down to
finding someone who can be productive very quickly.

Good luck. Life's to short to spend it doing something you don't like.

Gerry


"Dave Jacobowitz" wrote in message
om...
Dean,

Wow, your experience is definitely an eye opener. I think both your
and Toly's response are both good ones, and point out the wisdom of
not getting involved in aviation. And in fact, it had occurred to me
that the guy from Boeing was doing me a favor, even if it was a
disappointing one.

What to do for a career a tricky question, one that I continue to
struggle with. In the meantime, I have a career, the pay is good, but
I don't have the passion for it that I'd like.

I think the idea of finding something that I really did care about
will always hold some allure for me, and I probably will be willing to
work for "a little" less -- though I may be kidding myself about how
big a little might be!

And then there is always the dream of somehow having my own succesful
aviation-related company. It's hard to kill, even though I know that
"the easiest way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with
a large one."

You guys have injected a valuable note of sobriety into the
conversation, though.

-- dave

(Dean Wilkinson) wrote in message
om...
Be careful what you wish for...

I left a good EE design job at HP in Feb 2002 to work for a
Boise-based avionics company. I designed an interface box for their
EFIS system doing all of the system design, schematic design, board
layout, firmware, DO-178B design documentation, build and integration,
and test management solo. The box I designed was granted TSO approval
in October 2003.

I was underpaid, had no 401k, was poorly treated by my management, and
generally un-appreciated. While I was there, two of my co-workers in
the marketing department died in a plane crash, and my boss who was
the sole survivor and was not the PIC was forced out of the company by
his partners two weeks after the accident while he was still
recovering from surgery on his leg.

These same "nice guys" who back-stabbed their partner made my life
hell starting in January 2003. I would have left sooner if I hadn't
had a mortgage and a family to support, but I finally landed a job
back at HP in September of 2003.

I started my career at Boeing and had worked there for 8 years. My
Boeing experience working on the 777 was one of my best working
experiences, while the time I spent working at this other avionics
company was the absolute worst of my career.

Just because it looks like fun doesn't mean it is the best thing for
you to do. Be careful and do due-diligence before you jump into an
aviation company just because you think it will be fun. Odds are that
they won't compensate you as well as a commercial electronics company
because they consider it a "privilege" to work on aviation related
products and will try to take advantage of your enthusiasm. That
isn't to say that all of the companies in this industry are that way,
but I think that you will find that they aren't rare either...

Best Regards,

Dean

Gary,

Check out PS-Engineering. I think they're in Tennissee. They've got
some really neat products that might be right up your alley.

Regards,

Rob H. in Scottsdale

p.s. small world!



"Gary G" wrote in message ...
Hi folks,

Looking for some advise

This might seem strange.
I'm one of those guys who didn't have much "vision" earlier on in life in terms
of what I wanted to do. I got plenty-o-schooling, but feel now, nearing age 37, that
I didn't make the "best choices" in terms of a career that makes me happy.

I have a degree in Electrical Engineering, a bunch of graduate study in the field, a
fair amount of software experience, and a Masters of Science in Business
just to complete the lobotomy.

I live in the Baltimore-DC area, and desperately want to change careers into
the aviation industry. I'm enjoy my schooling, just not the field that I work in.
In fact, I'd like to keep a position that relies on my skills because it is what
I'm best at.

I'm very interested in Product/Project Management and or Business Development
or Marketing in the Aviation Industry. (Less defense and civil and consumer).
However, I'm not going to limit it! I have excellent communication skills (although
my typing is pathetic), and one fantastic attitude.

Oh - I'm a student pilot who intends to get my PPL by next fall.

How in the he!! do I look to get into that area.
I'd be willing to move, but would like to exhaust opportunities in the major
DC and Baltimore regions first.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
(Should you actually help me find a job, I'll make sure you get one fantastic REWARD! Ha!
I call it a finder's fee, but it won't be a just a dinner!)

Thanks to all who contribute to this fantastic newsgroup (I only found it about
3 months ago).

Regards,

Gary