Co-pilot error caused AA 587 crash

"Corky Scott" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 04:19:36 GMT, "Ralph Nesbitt"
wrote:

Since when did the average "Soccer Mom SUV" become an "Off Road Vehicle"?
Ralph Nesbitt
Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type

Since they were first introduced back in the 70's. It's the loophole
that allows them to qualify as "light trucks" instead of normal
vehicals which means they do not have to conform to the exhaust
emissions regulations all normal cars are held to.

Since they *MUST* have four wheel drive in order to keep their light
truck status, commercials continually hype the usefulness of their
off-road capability, despite the fact that many of them are sold in
states where no snow or ice normally falls.

Where is the reg stateing this? SUV's are the favorites of those that need a
vehicle capable of seating as many as 9, or seating for as many as 6 with
room for their luggage.

Since they are literally (perhaps this has changed recently) built on
truck chassis, people who buy them because they think they are safer
than ordinary cars are mistaken. They, at least until recently, did
not have the crash engineering designed into them that ordinary cars
had. Also, SUV's, because of their higher than normal weight and
higher than normal height, end up being more prone to loss of control
in marginal traction conditions than ordinary automobiles. Or at
least, that is what some experts have attempted to point out for
years.

Built on a light truck chasis yes, The rest is a bit to much fertilizer
IMHO.

Oh yes, almost forgot, SUV's due to their "light truck" status, do not
have to conform to the fuel economy regulations regular cars must
adhere to either. As a result they are collectively known as gas
gusslers and are targeted by green activists for "tickets" against the
environment and some occasional vandalism.

Agree on the fuel economy regs. Gas guzzlers, no more than any other vehicle
in their towing class. Don't know any "Green Activists"

The light truck loophole was created originally to give hard working
farmers a break.

SUV's were originally designed as light closed vehicles for small buisnesses
such as florists, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, etc that were dressed
up/decked out & marketed to families needing a vehicle larger than a sedan.
Corky Scott

Ralph Nesbitt
Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type

"Ralph Nesbitt" wrote:

"Corky Scott" wrote:

The light truck loophole was created originally to give hard working
farmers a break.

SUV's were originally designed as light closed vehicles for small buisnesses
such as florists, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, etc that were dressed
up/decked out & marketed to families needing a vehicle larger than a sedan.

That is true. I first saw Chevrolet Blazers on highway construction
projects in the mid-1970s, and that was one of the first SUV-like
vehicles, a light truck closed vehicle with 4-wheel drive.

--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com

Scott M. Kozel wrote:


That is true. I first saw Chevrolet Blazers on highway construction
projects in the mid-1970s, and that was one of the first SUV-like
vehicles, a light truck closed vehicle with 4-wheel drive.


SUV's go a lot farther back than that. The Chevy Apache was the
precursor to the Suburban and may have been made in the 50's. The 60's
for sure. I owned a 77 IH Scout when I was in college and IH had been
making them for a while.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:41:16 -0600, Newps wrote:



Scott M. Kozel wrote:


That is true. I first saw Chevrolet Blazers on highway construction
projects in the mid-1970s, and that was one of the first SUV-like
vehicles, a light truck closed vehicle with 4-wheel drive.


SUV's go a lot farther back than that. The Chevy Apache was the
precursor to the Suburban and may have been made in the 50's. The 60's
for sure. I owned a 77 IH Scout when I was in college and IH had been
making them for a while.

I used to have a '50 Chevy crummy -- a panel truck with side windows
and seats. Crummys were originally used for hauling loggers around
the NW woods. Actually, I understand that the term crummy originally
meant the narrowgauge railroad cars that hauled loggers. Mine was
the basic panel truck of the day, with the in-line "bluefire" six. It
got about the same mileage as today's SUVs. I don't know about
rolling over relative to modern SUVs. I lost the right front wheel on
a '52 Chevy pickup one time at 40 mph on a high-crown two-lane
blacktop and it stayed upright. I had to get a new brake drum from
the junkyard, though.

Don

Newps opined

Scott M. Kozel wrote:


That is true. I first saw Chevrolet Blazers on highway construction
projects in the mid-1970s, and that was one of the first SUV-like
vehicles, a light truck closed vehicle with 4-wheel drive.


SUV's go a lot farther back than that. The Chevy Apache was the
precursor to the Suburban and may have been made in the 50's. The 60's
for sure. I owned a 77 IH Scout when I was in college and IH had been
making them for a while.

Don't forget Dodge Power Wagons and Jeeps. Both go back a long way.

Actually you won't go far wrong if you think of SUVs as replacements for the
full sized station wagon of the 70s. The ones that CAFE made illegal.


-ash
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:

"Ralph Nesbitt" wrote:

"Corky Scott" wrote:

The light truck loophole was created originally to give hard working
farmers a break.

SUV's were originally designed as light closed vehicles for small buisnesses
such as florists, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, etc that were dressed
up/decked out & marketed to families needing a vehicle larger than a sedan.

That is true. I first saw Chevrolet Blazers on highway construction
projects in the mid-1970s, and that was one of the first SUV-like
vehicles, a light truck closed vehicle with 4-wheel drive.

Over here, the range Rover was introduced in 1970. The current model is still
recognisably its successor due to its distinctive styling.

Smaller than a Blazer of course.


Graham

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:

That is true. I first saw Chevrolet Blazers on highway construction
projects in the mid-1970s, and that was one of the first SUV-like
vehicles, a light truck closed vehicle with 4-wheel drive.

The earliest one I know of is the Willys Overland wagon. Came out in 1946.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

"Scott M. Kozel" wrote:

That is true. I first saw Chevrolet Blazers on highway construction
projects in the mid-1970s, and that was one of the first SUV-like
vehicles, a light truck closed vehicle with 4-wheel drive.

The earliest one I know of is the Willys Overland wagon. Came out in 1946.

Hardly a *Sports* Utility Vehicle though ?


Graham

Pooh Bear wrote:
Hardly a *Sports* Utility Vehicle though ?

SUVs are sons of the minivans. The car manufacturers realised that minivans
had a certain image that prevented market penetration in the younger crowds.
So they rebadged the minivan into "SUV", making it look sportier and marketing
it as something cool that lets you do cool things.

There is little need for "SUV", it is all artifically induced demand though marketing.

You may recall the initial SUVs marketing themselves as accessive off road
vehicles that didn't need a ladder to climb into. This effectively made those
vehicles unusable off road and relinquished them as urban status symbols.

The biggest irony I have seen is the owner of a Subaru Outback being told his
car couldn't make it through an australian outback road because it wasn't a
car capable of traveling outback roads due to it lacking clearance under the
car. Yet, in the USA, that car was marketed exactly as that, making it look
like buyers of that car would automatically become as cool as crocodile dundee
and able to ride across australia's true outback roads.

4wd isn't all that is needed to make a TRUE off road vehicle. You want oil
based air filters, snorkel for carbutaror intake, high clearance, special
gearing, ability to block differential on all wheels etc.

Most of the "SUV" urban vehicles lack those features.

Toyota and Landrover make the real "outback" vehicles. I think Jeep makes
rugged vehicles too but they aren't exported much.

Hummer is a very good example of urban vehicles. They are used by the military
in offroad situations, but prior to their being marketed as a status symbol
for urban environments, they had not made any inroads in the "offroad"
civilian applications.

nobody wrote:
Pooh Bear wrote:

Hardly a *Sports* Utility Vehicle though ?


SUVs are sons of the minivans.

Neat trick considering minivans were invented in the 1980's and SUV's as
we know them today are mid 70's vehicles. I'd say the SUV is more the
offspring of the station wagon. Same amount of room, better gas
mileage and a little higher off the ground.