Leaving the community

I haven't done an analysis for this year yet (obviously, since the year
isn't over and the data isn't there yet) but I do have the numbers for the
2000 contest. Since we had essentially the same red/blue map, this is
still telling. The bottom line?

Total tax receipts from states that voted for each candidate, in
$millions:
Go $1,202,891,545
Bush: $873,151,976

The real analysis would be to determine what percentage of each state's tax
receipts were generated by people who work for the government, or who are on
the government dole.

Since people being paid by the government (employees, retirees, what have
you) do not generate any income in the purest sense, the "taxes" they "pay"
are entirely illusory. Same with anyone on the dole.

Re-do your figures, Aviv, taking this into account, and I think you'll see a
DRAMATIC reversal of your numbers.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:aWrid.54917$R05.7099@attbi_s53...
....

The real analysis would be to determine what percentage of each state's
tax receipts were generated by people who work for the government, or who
are on the government dole.

Since people being paid by the government ... do not generate any income
in the purest sense...


That is not true.

If the government did not pay a food inspector, it would add substantial
costs for YOU, in order to keep your customers safe. If the government did
not operate an organized welfare system, the destitute would be parked on
your doorstep looking for handouts... or stealing from your customers,
costing you extra security and lost business. If the government didn't
keep the terrorists out, they would obviously be driving up Riverside Drive
right now, with a substantial consequence on your income.

In effect, government payees generate additional income for YOU, by helping
to reduce your costs in many ways. It would cost you a bundle if you tried
to achieve and maintain the same standard of life without any of them.

In effect, government payees generate additional income for YOU, by
helping to reduce your costs in many ways. It would cost you a bundle if
you tried to achieve and maintain the same standard of life without any of
them.

While that's 100% true, it has nothing to do with my statement.

People who work for the government generate no real income, create no real
wealth, and pay no real taxes. This is different from saying that they
aren't doing some necessary things.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" writes:

Since people being paid by the government (employees, retirees, what have
you) do not generate any income in the purest sense, the "taxes" they "pay"
are entirely illusory. Same with anyone on the dole.

A perfect example, Jay, of why your "olive branch" of yesterday is
just horse feathers, glued together with spit and bull****.

You--and many others--equate government workers with people on the
dole.

So let's see. The many government researchers who conceived of and
created the ARPAnet--later to become the Internet, which you use
now--are no better than welfare recipients. Or Albert Einstein who
was on the "dole" not only in the US, but Europe! Damn parasite.

Or maybe the trash collectors, or city engineers, or the zillion
others--they don't generate any income, eh? How about the soldiers
carrying Dumya's personal little war--oops, I meant, protecting the
Homeland. No real income generation there!

Do you? Really, all you do is take people's hard-earned money and
give them a very temporary, ephemeral product--a night's sleep--in
return. Hardly what I would call income, in the purest sense, that
is. Maybe the Enrons of the world, would that be real income and real
taxes?

Of course not. Anyone or any company that adds value to an individual
or group in the form of a product or service, and receives money for
that added value, that's income. And if they pay taxes on it, they're
real taxes. The source of the income is irrelevant.

The original poster, assuming his basic figures were correct, was
right. The blue states are carrying the parasitic red states. Here in
California, we are forced to add ethanol to our gasoline for one
purpose: to bail out Midwest corn farmers. Another burden on the
hard-working, efficient blue workers, whether private or public
sector.

Jeez, no wonder Dumya won. The biggest product this country makes is
religious fanatics and fuzzy thinkers, and they seem to be collected
in the Midwest and South.

Since people being paid by the government (employees, retirees, what have
you) do not generate any income in the purest sense, the "taxes" they
"pay"
are entirely illusory. Same with anyone on the dole.

A perfect example, Jay, of why your "olive branch" of yesterday is
just horse feathers, glued together with spit and bull****.

You--and many others--equate government workers with people on the
dole.

No, they are NOT the same.

However, it is nevertheless true that neither group generates real income,
creates real wealth, or pays taxes in any real sense.

Just think about it a minute, and it will make more sense. It is only the
people working OUTSIDE the government that can create wealth or pay taxes.
How can a government worker pay taxes? The money they are "paying" in
taxes is made from taxes in the first place!

Deducting taxes from government employee's paychecks is quite literally an
illusion. But it's an essential lie that keeps everyone else subdued about
the incredible rip-off we call our "tax code."

You might consider taking a few economics courses at your local community
college. These facts will be covered in the first month or so.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article 7kDid.56196$R05.33927@attbi_s53, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Just think about it a minute, and it will make more sense. It is only
the
people working OUTSIDE the government that can create wealth or pay
taxes.
How can a government worker pay taxes? The money they are "paying" in
taxes is made from taxes in the first place!

so, the money you earn at your hotel isn't weath if it was from people
who work for the government? What about the people who work for
companies working government contracts?

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

so, the money you earn at your hotel isn't weath if it was from people
who work for the government? What about the people who work for
companies working government contracts?

Ah, now things get fuzzy, don't they?

Pretty soon we'll be talking about whether wealth really exists at all,
which quickly descends into a "and does it matter, we'll all be dead in a
hundred years" argument anyway.

Since I've already got a headache, I'll pass on this one. Suffice it to say
that real taxes can only be paid by people who, by definition, do not work
in the government. Everything else is merely an illusion.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article 7kDid.56196$R05.33927@attbi_s53, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Just think about it a minute, and it will make more sense. It is only
the
people working OUTSIDE the government that can create wealth or pay
taxes.
How can a government worker pay taxes? The money they are "paying" in
taxes is made from taxes in the first place!

so, the money you earn at your hotel isn't weath if it was from people
who work for the government? What about the people who work for
companies working government contracts?

No, it isn't Bob; you're misconstruing the meaning of "wealth", particularly
"wealth creation".


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:7kDid.56196$R05.33927@attbi_s53...
Since people being paid by the government (employees, retirees, what have
you) do not generate any income in the purest sense, the "taxes" they
"pay"
are entirely illusory. Same with anyone on the dole.

A perfect example, Jay, of why your "olive branch" of yesterday is
just horse feathers, glued together with spit and bull****.

You--and many others--equate government workers with people on the
dole.

No, they are NOT the same.

However, it is nevertheless true that neither group generates real income,
creates real wealth, or pays taxes in any real sense.

Just think about it a minute, and it will make more sense. It is only the
people working OUTSIDE the government that can create wealth or pay taxes.
How can a government worker pay taxes? The money they are "paying" in
taxes is made from taxes in the first place!

Deducting taxes from government employee's paychecks is quite literally an
illusion. But it's an essential lie that keeps everyone else subdued about
the incredible rip-off we call our "tax code."

You might consider taking a few economics courses at your local community
college. These facts will be covered in the first month or so.

Well, I have a degree in economics, something more than "a few
courses". You're mixing up money, accounting, and wealth. GNP is the
sum total of all productive work in the economy over a year.
Government workers can, and some do, contribute productive work. If
it was not being done by them it would either have to do be done by
someone or we would be poorer as a country.

We track GNP by money, but the money is a just a marker, it's not real
thing. The productive work is the real thing.

Economically a government typically does things that either don't work
or aren't done well by the market system. There ARE things that don't
work in markets - any good general economics textbook will discuss
"market failures". Although some people think that markets solve
everything, they're wrong. Markets are good and solve many things -
but they're not a cure all.

I don't like some government workers, but they I don't like some store
clerks and cashiers I have to deal with at the supermarket either.
The difference is that it's easier for me to change supermarkets than
it is governments. I tried this last election and it didn't work.

-Malcolm Teas

Well, I have a degree in economics, something more than "a few
courses".

Well, welcome to the "Land of Useless Degrees" -- as the owner of an English
degree, I can sympathize....

;-)

You're mixing up money, accounting, and wealth.

I wasn't mixing up anything -- I was simplifying for the sake of a Usenet
argument. If you want to get into macro-economic theory, most people here
(myself included) will quickly doze off.

The pseudo-"science" of economics is one of the main reasons I dropped my
Business major in my sophomore year. The only area of study I found that
was less scientific, perhaps, was sociology -- although it was a close race.

Let's keep it simple: People who work outside of the government pay all the
taxes that pay for the people's jobs who work INSIDE the government --
period. It doesn't much matter if it's stuff that SHOULD or COULD be done
by the private sector -- cuz it's just not happening.

Thus, any "taxes" paid by the people who work inside the government simply
don't exist, except on paper. It's all accounting smoke and mirrors.

What the government SHOULD do, to keep the system simple and honest, is to
simply pay their workers a straight wage, without any bogus taxes being
deducted. The only reason they DON'T do this, quite frankly, is that they'd
have to pay their workers (on paper) a good 20 to 30% less than their
equivalent job in the private sector.

This wouldn't help government recruitment, now would it?

Of course, when the public suddenly realized that these government workers
were taking home the exact same amount of money they were -- even though
they appeared to be paid 30% less -- the private sector workers might
finally realize just how unfairly they were being taxed.

This would soon lead to a popular (and probably violent) revolt -- which
isn't compatible with keeping the country running smoothly. Thus, the
ridiculous system of paying government workers 30% more -- just so they can
deduct 30% in taxes -- persists.

It's criminal. And it's the law.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"