Leaving the community

Frank wrote:
Peter Duniho wrote:

snip

My main point was simply that the electorate in general believes what they
want to believe, regardless of what the actual truth is. This is true of
all people, regardless of party affiliation. My secondary, much less
important point (especially now that the election is over), might be that
I personally feel that lying to the public in order to justify a deadly
war is a much bigger transgression than has been witnessed in the
Executive branch since the Iran-Contra scandal.

Pete


Very well put Pete.

I'd add that even if the Iraq invasion was justified it was bungled badly.
The administration ignored its own experts and we lost lives because of it.
For that reason alone they don't merit being returned to office.


There is no evidence that the public was lied to. Having and acting on
bad intelligence isn't the same as lying. That would imply that the
intelligence was known to be bad and I simply don't think that was the case.

Sure, certain things about the invasion and aftermath were bungled, but
you don't fire people for making a mistake or two. If that was the
case, then not a single congressman would survive more than one term.

And most of us would have lost our pilot's licences long ago if a
mistake or two was the metric.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Frank wrote:
Peter Duniho wrote:

snip

My main point was simply that the electorate in general believes what
they
want to believe, regardless of what the actual truth is. This is true of
all people, regardless of party affiliation. My secondary, much less
important point (especially now that the election is over), might be that
I personally feel that lying to the public in order to justify a deadly
war is a much bigger transgression than has been witnessed in the
Executive branch since the Iran-Contra scandal.

Pete


Very well put Pete.

I'd add that even if the Iraq invasion was justified it was bungled
badly.
The administration ignored its own experts and we lost lives because of
it.
For that reason alone they don't merit being returned to office.


There is no evidence that the public was lied to. Having and acting on
bad intelligence isn't the same as lying. That would imply that the
intelligence was known to be bad and I simply don't think that was the
case.

Sure, certain things about the invasion and aftermath were bungled, but
you don't fire people for making a mistake or two. If that was the case,
then not a single congressman would survive more than one term.

And most of us would have lost our pilot's licences long ago if a mistake
or two was the metric.


Matt


And according to NPR this morning they find Sarin in Falluja. Sounds like a
WMD to me.

And according to NPR this morning they find Sarin in Falluja. Sounds like
a WMD to me.

Yes, I was stunned to hear this announced -- and on NPR, that most liberal
bastion of the Left! (And my favorite news source...)

Of course, the other networks barely mentioned it -- and there is nothing in
my local newspaper at all. Just as there is nothing about the incredibly
huge "Oil for Food" conspiracy scandal with the Russians and the French --
all of whom made billions working with Saddam.

News Flash!: The mainstream media -- members of whom overwhelmingly
identify themselves as "Democrat" -- only report what fits their world view.

Which is why Fox News is so incredibly popular right now.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Gig Giacona" wrote


And according to NPR this morning they find Sarin in Falluja. Sounds like
a
WMD to me.

I have been unable to find any reports on the internet, on this subject.
Anyone have any more info?
--
Jim in NC


---
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Morgans,

I have been unable to find any reports on the internet, on this subject.
Anyone have any more info?


Nothing at all. Don't believe all you hear on the internet...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

I have been unable to find any reports on the internet, on this subject.
Anyone have any more info?


Nothing at all. Don't believe all you hear on the internet...

Interesting, isn't it? The sarin find was reported by NPR's female
correspondent (whose name escapes me), who is embedded with a Marine unit in
Fallujah. I heard it myself on NPR's "All Things Considered," which airs in
the afternoons.

Now, it's no where to be found.

Either the report has been discredited, or it's being suppressed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article Hw2ld.24237$V41.3744@attbi_s52,
"Jay Honeck" wrote:

Interesting, isn't it? The sarin find was reported by NPR's female
correspondent (whose name escapes me), who is embedded with a Marine unit in
Fallujah. I heard it myself on NPR's "All Things Considered," which airs in
the afternoons.

Now, it's no where to be found.

Either the report has been discredited, or it's being suppressed.

I heard the follow-up within the past 24 hours, probably on NRP, which
is where I think I heard the original report.

The original report from the female NRP reporter, as I recall hearing
it, was that troops entering some area had found containers which were
labelled in some way, in English, with the word Sarin, and that since
the troops who found this stuff didn't have the expertise to tell what
the contents were, more expert people were being brought in to assess
what it was.

The follow-up was that the materials were not sarin weapons but
protective gear for sarin weapons.

[Which, taken together, means that your final sentence above is
incorrect, right? -- that is, the original report, at least as I recall
it, was neither discredited nor is it being suppressed.]

[On the other hand, it's certainly an interesting question as to what
that particular stuff was doing there? Did Iraqis have it because they
either thought or knew that they or other Iraqi forces had sarin? (I
recall a report some time back claiming that certain captured or
interviewed Iraqi generals said that they didn't have chemical weapons
but believed that other Iraqi forces did.) Or did they have it because
they believed _we_ would use it? Or did outside insurgents bring the
stuff in from elsewhere? Will we ever know?]

I heard it between 6:20 and 6:30am CST 11/11/04 on NPR's Morning Edition.
I'm sure the archive is available at NPR.org.


"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Gig Giacona" wrote


And according to NPR this morning they find Sarin in Falluja. Sounds like
a
WMD to me.

I have been unable to find any reports on the internet, on this subject.
Anyone have any more info?
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004

Gig Giacona wrote:

I heard it between 6:20 and 6:30am CST 11/11/04 on NPR's Morning Edition.
I'm sure the archive is available at NPR.org.

Yes. Check http://www.npr.org/rundowns/rundown....te=11-Nov-2004 and
cycle down to the story "U.S. Forces Meeting Less Resistance in Fallujah". That's
audio, but the reference to Sarin is very early. They found vials labels "Sarin-V"
and thought, at first, that they had found vials of the gas itself. That's what
caused the early reports. Tests showed, however, that the vials are part of a test
kit to test for the presence of Sarin gas. There is, of course, speculation as to why
the insurgents would have test kits for a gas that isn't available.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:58:33 -0500, Matt Whiting
wrote:

There is no evidence that the public was lied to

If he declares he has none, then we will know that Saddam Hussein is
once again misleading the world.

Ari Fleischer December 2, 2002

We know for a fact that there are weapons there.

Ari Fleischer January 9, 2003


Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the
materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX
nerve agent.

George W. Bush January 28, 2003


We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized
Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the
dictator tells us he does not have.

George Bush February 8, 2003


Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt
that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most
lethal weapons ever devised.

George Bush March 18, 2003


We know where they are. They are in the area around Tikrit and
Baghdad.

Donald Rumsfeld March 30, 2003

No where do you hear them saying: "Well we have some sources of
information that indicate Saddam may have weapons of mass destruction
but there are a number of operatives in the CIA who think that this
information is false." They did not say that, even though they knew
this was the case because they did not want the public to know there
was dissent. They especially did not want the Senate and Congress to
know there was dissent because they wanted them to give the White
House the go ahead for war. They were determined to go to war. They
were, according to a number of revelations from White House insiders,
interested in invading Iraq well before the attacks of Sept 11.

They also did not say that their source of information for WMD was
none other than an expatriot Iraqi group who wanted Saddam removed
from power. It now appears that this group was prepared to say
whatever the neoconservatives wanted to hear to make their case. This
conflict of interest should have made them automatically suspect, and
they were suspect to the CIA, but not to the White House.

This is so close to lying to the American public that it's hard to see
the difference.

Corky Scott