Leaving the community

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
If you get right down to it, the only arguments against murder or theft
are
basically religious.

Hardly. A peaceful society requires that members of that society be safe
and that their property remains safe. If murder and theft are allowed,
the
outcome is assured: rampant violence, and an enormous waste as everyone
invests most of their resources trying to take what the other members of
society have, including their lives.

You don't need religion to justify rules against murder or theft.

No? Why is it important that society be peaceful or safe?

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
No? Why is it important that society be peaceful or safe?

If you don't believe in trying to maximize human happiness, then there's
nothing important about making society peaceful and safe. Maybe you don't
hold that belief.

Fortunately for me, and lots of other people, as humans we agree that being
happy is a good goal, and thus being peaceful and safe is also a good goal.
Very few people are happy when they are not safely at peace with other
humans.

From a purely pragmatic point of view, humanity can progress intellectually,
technologically, and economically fastest if we aren't wasting time trying
to kill each other.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
No? Why is it important that society be peaceful or safe?

If you don't believe in trying to maximize human happiness, then there's
nothing important about making society peaceful and safe. Maybe you don't
hold that belief.


If a belief in maximizing human happiness is not a religious belief, what is
it?

After all, if we are nothing but sacks of chemicals, doomed in the end to
become nothing but waste heat, why should we care what happens to us or to
anything else? Nothing we do makes any difference at all if we eventually
just become random ergs scattered throughout the universe.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
No? Why is it important that society be peaceful or safe?

If you don't believe in trying to maximize human happiness, then there's
nothing important about making society peaceful and safe. Maybe you
don't
hold that belief.


If a belief in maximizing human happiness is not a religious belief, what
is
it?

Not a religious belief. You should not be trying to redefine religion,
which is based on a god or gods and is best acknowledged as founded on the
gullibility of the many and the calculations of the few.

After all, if we are nothing but sacks of chemicals, doomed in the end to
become nothing but waste heat, why should we care what happens to us or to
anything else? Nothing we do makes any difference at all if we eventually
just become random ergs scattered throughout the universe.

Not random, my moorman friend. You can leave footprints in the sands of
time, or be a lasting legacy like Charles Dickens or Henry Ford, sire
children who will in turn sire children, perhaps even contribute to the
fossil record --- like the missing link between Neanderthal and human
recently discovered, or the subhumanoid bones recently unearthed in
Indonesia.

Having read some of your scribblings, however, I am not encouraged that your
legacy will be anything more than dust.

" jls" wrote in message
news

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
No? Why is it important that society be peaceful or safe?

If you don't believe in trying to maximize human happiness, then
there's
nothing important about making society peaceful and safe. Maybe you
don't
hold that belief.


If a belief in maximizing human happiness is not a religious belief, what
is
it?

Not a religious belief. You should not be trying to redefine religion,
which is based on a god or gods and is best acknowledged as founded on the
gullibility of the many and the calculations of the few.

After all, if we are nothing but sacks of chemicals, doomed in the end to
become nothing but waste heat, why should we care what happens to us or
to
anything else? Nothing we do makes any difference at all if we eventually
just become random ergs scattered throughout the universe.

Not random, my moorman friend.

Is he really a Mormon. Uh oh.


Arguing about ethics and morals and religion is probably a waste of time
here. (not specifically due to the mormonism/LDS but just in general)

For a clear statement of objective laws see Ayn Rand - probably the most
succint philosophy on this subject, but certainly not succint with her
prose!!!



You can leave footprints in the sands of
time, or be a lasting legacy like Charles Dickens or Henry Ford, sire
children who will in turn sire children, perhaps even contribute to the
fossil record --- like the missing link between Neanderthal and human
recently discovered, or the subhumanoid bones recently unearthed in
Indonesia.

Having read some of your scribblings, however, I am not encouraged that
your
legacy will be anything more than dust.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
If a belief in maximizing human happiness is not a religious belief, what
is
it?

It's an innate desire, not a religious belief. It's basic biology. We come
pre-wired to desire happiness.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
If a belief in maximizing human happiness is not a religious belief,
what
is
it?

It's an innate desire, not a religious belief. It's basic biology. We
come
pre-wired to desire happiness.

Again, why? And please understand, I am not some wild-eyed creationist; I
accept evolution as scientific fact. However, I fail to see a strong
selective advantage in a sack of chemicals wanting to be happy.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
Again, why? And please understand, I am not some wild-eyed creationist; I
accept evolution as scientific fact. However, I fail to see a strong
selective advantage in a sack of chemicals wanting to be happy.

Really? Basic happiness comes about from several instinctual urges:
procreation, hunger, and protection from elements. Humans, being the
socially complex animals that they are, have managed to find a host of other
ways to stimulate those pleasure centers, but in many cases, those
activities still benefit the human animal in a positive way.

Furthermore, there is a very real health advantage to happiness. A feeling
of happiness is correlated with low stress, while conversely a person who is
not happy has increased stress. Higher stress levels cause problems with
one's immune system (stress stimulates the adrenal glands, which causes the
hormone cortisone to be produced, suppressing the immune system), and
general ability to cope with life (interferes with mental processes,
including problem solving and decision making, for example).

But regardless, none of this is even required to show that you don't require
religion to justify happiness. A simple global desire to be happy is
sufficient (if you have no such desire to be happy, you may have a hard time
comprehending this, but it sure would explain some other things). That's
why large groups of humans get together and agree to try to be happy
together, rather than killing and stealing from each other all the time.

Religion need not come into the issue at any time. Lack of a religious
basis does not necessarily require a biological basis (even though in this
case, there certainly is a biological imperative to try to be happy).

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

But regardless, none of this is even required to show that you don't
require
religion to justify happiness. A simple global desire to be happy is
sufficient (if you have no such desire to be happy, you may have a hard
time
comprehending this, but it sure would explain some other things). That's
why large groups of humans get together and agree to try to be happy
together, rather than killing and stealing from each other all the time.


I think a good argument can be made that one reason people kill and steal
stems from the desire to be happy. In this respect happiness (or the desire
for happiness) could be a negative trait.

Personally, I do not consider happiness to be undesirable. I think the role
of religion should be to increase happiness.

Religion need not come into the issue at any time. Lack of a religious
basis does not necessarily require a biological basis (even though in this
case, there certainly is a biological imperative to try to be happy).

To the contrary, I believe there must be a biological basis for religious
conviction. But you must understand, too, that I regard religious conviction
(at least in part) as the desire to make sense and order out of things where
there appears to be none. Thus, I think that recognition of a desire for
happiness (or any other desires or appetites, for that matter) constitutes a
religion, albeit perhaps a very rudimentary one. That my personal religion
may be more elaborate than yours is another matter. It matters little to me
what people worship, whether it be happiness, the dollar, or aliens from
Betelgeuse -- whatever you worship constitutes a religion. Whether it is a
true religion, that is, whether your particular god or gods actually exist
and can communicate with you, is irrelevant at that level. Nevertheless, I
hypothesize that virtually all laws stem from some religious feeling as I
have defined it.

I am of course very cognizant that this definition is not universally
accepted, except, perhaps by universalists. However, I think it is the only
definition that works in this context. Constraining the definition religious
belief to organized religions, particularly Christianity, seems too
exclusive and narrow and prone to severe problems of ethnocentricity.

I also recognize that my own organized religion and religious beliefs are
highly structured. Make no mistake, I firmly believe in it. But that does
not mean that I do not recognize that there are other religions. I do think
that many people err when they say that they do not have religious beliefs
when it is very obvious that they are worshipping something.

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:47:26 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
If a belief in maximizing human happiness is not a religious belief,
what
is
it?

It's an innate desire, not a religious belief. It's basic biology. We
come
pre-wired to desire happiness.

Again, why? And please understand, I am not some wild-eyed creationist; I
accept evolution as scientific fact. However, I fail to see a strong
selective advantage in a sack of chemicals wanting to be happy.

Self aware and self determination; Being happy feels better than
unhappy. Hence we do our best to do the things that make us happy.
There is an ingrained force for like to band together and to shun or
destroy what is different. That is true throughout the animal kingdom.
Being happy, or content is a survival trait for the species.

Religion is basically a common belief. Having faith gives most people
comfort, be it in a god, God, or a pet rock. The definition of
religion has changed over the years, but in general is based on the
belief in a god, or the supernatural. If you have an old enough
dictionary (over 50 years) look up cult and occult. The definitions
were much broader back then and did not exclude orthodox religions.

If someone comes along with a different belief that makes them happy,
it threatens the belief of the other. When each says they are the
only way then one must be wrong. What once was making us feel good
now makes us feel threatened even if only at the subconscious level.
Some one who's belief system is strong can discuss opposing views
calmly. Those who get excited, argumentative, and even aggressive do
so because they feel threatened (Psychology 101)

It matters not what the differences, be it, or they, physical, or
philosophical. If they are different then they are perceived as a
threat to our happiness.

Whether it be the neighbors land, resources, car, wife, belief
system... What ever we see as desirable we want so we can be happy.
Sooo...The logical conclusion is we end up fighting wars mot because
we enjoy fighting, but because we want to be happy.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com