Newbie Qs on stalls and spins

Besides, spins are aerobatic maneuvers and you are required to have
parachutes unless you are doing it as part of a certificate or rating.

Nope - you don't need to be "doing it as part of a certificate or rating".

Hilton

Cites please?
--
Jim in NC


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"Morgans" wrote in message ...
Besides, spins are aerobatic maneuvers and you are required to have
parachutes unless you are doing it as part of a certificate or rating.

Nope - you don't need to be "doing it as part of a certificate or rating".

Hilton

Cites please?

I believe he's referring to 91.307(c). It says :

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved
parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other
than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the
horizon.

"C" basically restricts the rule to pilots of aircraft that are
carrying persons other than crewmembers. So, I can go out and spin my
Cherokee solo, but if I'm carrying a passenger, we both require
chutes. Then there is another exception :

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to—

(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for
any certificate or rating when given by—

(i) A certificated flight instructor; or

(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with §61.67
of this chapter.

So, the parachute rule also does not apply if I'm doing a flight
test, or if I'm performing spins or other maneuvers required for any
certificate or rating, as long as there's an instructor. It doesn't
say that I have to be in training for a particular rating. The (2)
part of the rule excepts the type of manuevers, it doesn't require
that you be training for a specific rating.

This rule allows an instructor to demonstrate a spin to a PPL
student without requiring that they wear parachutes. Even though
there is no spin training required in the PPL, the maneuver itself is
allowed because it is "required by the regulations for any certificate
or rating".

To me (not being a CFI), this means that I can spin my Cherokee
without chutes either solo, or with an instructor, but if the person
in the next seat is not an instructor or ATP, chutes are required.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"John Galban" wrote in message
m...
To me (not being a CFI), this means that I can spin my Cherokee
without chutes either solo, or with an instructor,

Are there Cherokees that permit intentional spins? The Arrow and Warrior
POHs prohibit them.

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message ...

Are there Cherokees that permit intentional spins? The Arrow and Warrior
POHs prohibit them.


Yes. It depends on the year and equipment configuration. Most
-140s are approved for intentional spins in the Utility category.
Many early body (pre '73) Cherokee -180s were also approved for
intentional spins in the Utility category. In '73 the -180 fuselage
was stretched 5 inches, which moved the C.G. back and intentional
spins were no longer approved. The Archer and Warrior both use the
longer fuselage and are not approved.

Note : There are some exceptions for -140 and -180 models equipped
with the large fresh air blower in the tail. You should check the
paperwork and placards on an individual airplane to determine if it is
approved. Also, the PA28 is very sensitive to C.G. in a spin. W&B
MUST be in the Utility category.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

(John Galban) wrote in message . com...
"Gary Drescher" wrote in message ...

Are there Cherokees that permit intentional spins? The Arrow and Warrior
POHs prohibit them.


Yes. It depends on the year and equipment configuration. Most
-140s are approved for intentional spins in the Utility category.

Please have a look at what the FAA officially says about spinning a
Cherokee. Specifically the 140 model.

http://www.faa.gov/certification/air.../ACE-97-02.htm

I took my spin training in a Cherokee 140 and we had a difficult time
keeping it held in a spin, simply letting up a little on the rudder
pedal would exit the spin. We were probably a little too low on the
weight and forward on the CG to get a clearly defined spin going, and
neither I nor my instructor had the balls to want to try "aggravating"
the spin with ailerons or added power. Simply letting go of all the
controls and the little plane would straighten up and begin flying
again, but the airspeed does climb quite disturbingly briskly when the
nose is pointed straight down and the wing starts flying again.
Recovering out of the dive frightened me more than the spin itself.
Reading the FAA's SAIB at the URL above, seems to suggest that a 140
can wrap up in a really tight and scary rapid spin, but we were only
able to to get a really mushy, slow spin going. And before anyone
flames me about it, yes we both were wearing chutes and we looked and
felt really dorky wearing the "acro chutes" in a Cherokee. In
retrospect, if something had gone so badly wrong that we would have
needed the chutes, we probably both could not have been able to egress
a tumbling, plummeting Cherokee thru it's single door anyway.

"John Galban" wrote

To me (not being a CFI), this means that I can spin my Cherokee
without chutes either solo, or with an instructor, but if the person
in the next seat is not an instructor or ATP, chutes are required.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

So CFI's get to do stuff that we can not do without them. With no chutes,
CFI's and students, and others all splat the same. Just a comment.
--
Jim in NC


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"Morgans" wrote
So CFI's get to do stuff that we can not do without them. With no chutes,
CFI's and students, and others all splat the same. Just a comment.

And a valid one. CFI's are presumed to have a high level of skill and
judgment, and thus it is assumed that an adequate level of safety will
be maintained even without parachutes.

The presumption is wrong. Holding a CFI ticket only proves an ability
to jump through some FAA hoops. Because of this, spin training
accidents killed more people than inadvertent spins back when spin
training was required for all pilots. The solution SHOULD have been a
higher level of spin qualification for CFI's, both so the accidents in
training would not happen and so the people teaching spins actually
knew what they were teaching. The solution WAS to stop requiring spin
training.

Michael

On 17 Nov 2004 12:12:55 -0800, (John Galban)
wrote:

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for
any certificate or rating when given by—

(i) A certificated flight instructor; or

So ... the instructor who spun the Cub with me in the back was in
violation of the FARs? The maneuver was required for my certificate!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

Cub Driver wrote in message . ..
On 17 Nov 2004 12:12:55 -0800, (John Galban)
wrote:

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for
any certificate or rating when given by?

(i) A certificated flight instructor; or

So ... the instructor who spun the Cub with me in the back was in
violation of the FARs? The maneuver was required for my certificate!


I don't see how. What I posted above is an exception to the
parachute requirement. If he was a CFI, I don't see how he could have
been in violation of the regs, regardless of whether or not you were
wearing chutes.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)