An Olive Branch

Corky Scott wrote:


Perhaps it would be better to evaluate exactly what's wrong with that
particular school and see if you can fix the problem.

Which is what in reality is happening. Before, the taxpayers would be
asked to throw fistfuls of money at the school. Now, they're starting
to look at the teachers and the administrators, which is where the
problem has almost always been.

Perhaps it would be better to evaluate exactly what's wrong with that
particular school and see if you can fix the problem.

Which is what in reality is happening. Before, the taxpayers would be
asked to throw fistfuls of money at the school. Now, they're starting to
look at the teachers and the administrators, which is where the problem
has almost always been.

PRECISELY!

For too many years, teachers and administrators at bad schools were allowed
to just shuffle under-performing students along, getting them "out of their
hair" by promoting them.

Now, for the first time, they are being held accountable -- and screaming to
high heaven.

To which, as a parent with two kids in arguably the finest school system in
America, I say "good!"... Sometimes it takes a swift kick in the pants,
financially, to wake people up to a problem.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Ok, I've been too busy to read the newsgroups but you guys are really nuts! No
Child Left Behind does NOTHING to improve student achievement. The schools
often have little to work with in the first place and I'm not talking $$. I
teach in one of the best schools in one of the best systems in the country. My
school has an upward of 98% pass rate on the science SOL (our standards test)
but some of our kids aren't passing and no matter what I do they won't. Do you
know if you have a borderline mentally retarded student taking science for
learning disabled kids they need to pass the test? Well, if the retarded kids
can pass, how good is the test?

I had one kid (smart, I liked him) who had to go home and do 3 hours of house
work and deal the mom's, boyfriend's 19 year old just released from prison, son
sharing a room with him. The 6 degree night he only walked the dog for half and
hour mom got ****ed, loaded him into the car and tried to have him locked up for
insubordination. Yeah, he was really worried about Newton's laws!

We've got kids who face safety issues everyday and no one worries about that.

No child left behind also mandates rather time consuming tests (6+ hours) for
many students. In my sister's school they tested on kid in a number of sessions
over a number of days to prove he was making progress. This child possesses
only a brain stem, nothing above it. What did that testing accomplish?

No child left behind is a great example of educational policy gone bad. High
stakes testing isn't good for anyone. Standarized tests are fine, but don't
tell kids they are failures over and over and over again when they can't help
that they have an IQ of 72.

Margy

Jay Honeck wrote:

Perhaps it would be better to evaluate exactly what's wrong with that
particular school and see if you can fix the problem.

Which is what in reality is happening. Before, the taxpayers would be
asked to throw fistfuls of money at the school. Now, they're starting to
look at the teachers and the administrators, which is where the problem
has almost always been.

PRECISELY!

For too many years, teachers and administrators at bad schools were allowed
to just shuffle under-performing students along, getting them "out of their
hair" by promoting them.

Now, for the first time, they are being held accountable -- and screaming to
high heaven.

To which, as a parent with two kids in arguably the finest school system in
America, I say "good!"... Sometimes it takes a swift kick in the pants,
financially, to wake people up to a problem.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

No child left behind is a great example of educational policy gone bad.
High
stakes testing isn't good for anyone. Standarized tests are fine, but
don't
tell kids they are failures over and over and over again when they can't
help
that they have an IQ of 72.

It sounds like you've identified an absurd part of No Child Left Behind that
we talked about to some degree (that thread is months old). There is no
justification for requiring a retarded child to pass ANY kind of
standardized test, period.

But that doesn't mean No Child Left Behind is a bad program -- it merely
means it needs to be fine-tuned to not include kids with mental
disabilities.

Bottom line: For the first time schools nation-wide are having to prove that
they are actually educating the children in their care. This seemingly
innocuous requirement has stirred up a firestorm of resentment and
objections, which, IMHO, says volumes about what has really been going on in
our schools.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay, read Margie's post again.

You focused on the walking carrot and ignored the ****ed-up mother.

Which do you figure there are more of in underperforming schools.?

Don

Jay, read Margie's post again.

You focused on the walking carrot and ignored the ****ed-up mother.

Which do you figure there are more of in underperforming schools.?

And your point is...what?

Surely it's not that we should abandon standardized testing as a means to
determine the functionality of our schools because some parents are morons?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:33:07 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Jay, read Margie's post again.

You focused on the walking carrot and ignored the ****ed-up mother.

Which do you figure there are more of in underperforming schools.?

And your point is...what?

Surely it's not that we should abandon standardized testing as a means to
determine the functionality of our schools because some parents are morons?

I'm with Bill Cosby. Don't blame teachers for what parents send to
school.

Don

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:46:01 -0500, Margy Natalie
wrote:

Ok, I've been too busy to read the newsgroups but you guys are really nuts! No
Child Left Behind does NOTHING to improve student achievement. The schools
often have little to work with in the first place and I'm not talking $$. I
teach in one of the best schools in one of the best systems in the country. My
school has an upward of 98% pass rate on the science SOL (our standards test)
but some of our kids aren't passing and no matter what I do they won't. Do you
know if you have a borderline mentally retarded student taking science for
learning disabled kids they need to pass the test? Well, if the retarded kids
can pass, how good is the test?

This sounds like a modernized version of "outcome based education" and
most of us know how well that worked.

Passing a kid who does not have the capability of doing the work is
not doing them any favors. Passing a kid who won't do the work is not
doing them any favors either.

I feel sorry for the kids in situations that prevent them from doing
their work, but again that is not the schools, or teachers fault and
it is not doing the kind any favors by passing them.

Lowering the qualifications for passing the tests does everyone a
disservice.

Let's face it, If you or I, or any adult doesn't have the capabilities
to do a job we were hired to do, we are fired. If we don't do the
work, regardless of our capabilities we still get fired. What happens
to the kid who is passed through school without the ability to do the
work, or who doesn't do the work? At best they can hope for menial
labor and the odds are they won't do well there either.

Life is harsh. If we don't have the education we can not compete. If
we don't have the capability, we can't compete. There are many who
just do not have the capability to do so and the system has to
accommodate them, but it shouldn't drag the entire educational system
down in the process.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On 12/17/04 4:24 AM, in article ,
"Roger" wrote:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:46:01 -0500, Margy Natalie
wrote:

Ok, I've been too busy to read the newsgroups but you guys are really nuts!
No
Child Left Behind does NOTHING to improve student achievement. The schools
often have little to work with in the first place and I'm not talking $$. I
teach in one of the best schools in one of the best systems in the country.
My
school has an upward of 98% pass rate on the science SOL (our standards test)
but some of our kids aren't passing and no matter what I do they won't. Do
you
know if you have a borderline mentally retarded student taking science for
learning disabled kids they need to pass the test? Well, if the retarded
kids
can pass, how good is the test?

This sounds like a modernized version of "outcome based education" and
most of us know how well that worked.

Passing a kid who does not have the capability of doing the work is
not doing them any favors. Passing a kid who won't do the work is not
doing them any favors either.

I feel sorry for the kids in situations that prevent them from doing
their work, but again that is not the schools, or teachers fault and
it is not doing the kind any favors by passing them.

Lowering the qualifications for passing the tests does everyone a
disservice.


No Child Left Behind is gov-speak for No Child Allowed to Excel.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

The Wizard's 2004 Christmas newsletter
http://www.wizardofdraws.com/main/xmas04.html

Roger wrote:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:46:01 -0500, Margy Natalie
wrote:

Ok, I've been too busy to read the newsgroups but you guys are really nuts! No
Child Left Behind does NOTHING to improve student achievement. The schools
often have little to work with in the first place and I'm not talking $$. I
teach in one of the best schools in one of the best systems in the country. My
school has an upward of 98% pass rate on the science SOL (our standards test)
but some of our kids aren't passing and no matter what I do they won't. Do you
know if you have a borderline mentally retarded student taking science for
learning disabled kids they need to pass the test? Well, if the retarded kids
can pass, how good is the test?

This sounds like a modernized version of "outcome based education" and
most of us know how well that worked.

Passing a kid who does not have the capability of doing the work is
not doing them any favors. Passing a kid who won't do the work is not
doing them any favors either.

Why do ALL students have to pass ALL tests? What's wrong with the kid that just
doesn't make it in Algebra II doing something else. Who says EVERYONE must pass
Algebra II to be ok? (I know the answer here, the State of Virginia says you must
pass Algebra II). I agree that MOST students should be able to pass MOST tests, but
NCLB demands high stakes testing of all students. I agree that standards can be
applied. NY used to have general diplomas and Regents diplomas. The Regents
diploma meant the student had passed a series of exams. Now states are required to
have exams for all diploma, so a struggling student who may be very qualified for a
number of professions can't manage to pass the tests and can't find employment due
to no high school diploma. This is good?



I feel sorry for the kids in situations that prevent them from doing
their work, but again that is not the schools, or teachers fault and
it is not doing the kind any favors by passing them.

Lowering the qualifications for passing the tests does everyone a
disservice.

Let's face it, If you or I, or any adult doesn't have the capabilities
to do a job we were hired to do, we are fired. If we don't do the
work, regardless of our capabilities we still get fired. What happens
to the kid who is passed through school without the ability to do the
work, or who doesn't do the work? At best they can hope for menial
labor and the odds are they won't do well there either.

Life is harsh. If we don't have the education we can not compete. If
we don't have the capability, we can't compete. There are many who
just do not have the capability to do so and the system has to
accommodate them, but it shouldn't drag the entire educational system
down in the process.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com