DoD to remove FLIP's from public

Using a "game" as a comparison to my statement was quite funny.. at least
when I thought you were trying to be..

So.. when you purchase Microsoft Flight Sim you get monthly data updates
from Jepp for free? and current, legal for flight data? Crap! I'll make a
trip to CompUSA tomorrow..

Yes, Jepp charges a software Vendor a flat fee of $500 which includes a year
of updates for each product they sell regardless if the user wants cycle
updates or not. That is why you don't see many vendors offering Jepp
outside of the big manufacturers that can afford to negotiate better deals
through volume sales.

Dennis

"Peter Clark" wrote in message
...
What's funny? You're the one who made the statement that Jep charges
the software publisher 500/yr/copy recurring for each copy of the
database (apparently regardless of updates or whether the end user
continues to use the program) and I asked a logical question since MS
uses Jepp data and doesn't have a price point anywhere near $500/copy.

And the $800 or so /yr for updates I pay King for my 172's Jepp
derived KLN94 and MFD datacards isn't because I'm a simmer.

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:59:02 GMT, "Dennis" wrote:

LOL!! Flight Simmers crack me up sometimes..

Dennis

"Peter Clark" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:30:59 GMT, "Dennis" wrote:

I highly doubt this will actually take effect.. This WILL cause many
companies their business, and its a safe bet the number will be in the
thousands. Jepp is already known for raping people on prices, they want
$500 a year to include their data in your software per copy! Not to
mention
it will cost lives because people simply will fly with outdated data due
to
the high costs Jepp charges.

So Microsoft is eating $450/copy of their ~$50 Flight Simulator which
contains Jepp navdata? And they're then paying $500/year/copy of FS
sold thereafter?

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 03:57:37 GMT, "Dennis" wrote:

Using a "game" as a comparison to my statement was quite funny.. at least
when I thought you were trying to be..

So.. when you purchase Microsoft Flight Sim you get monthly data updates
from Jepp for free? and current, legal for flight data? Crap! I'll make a
trip to CompUSA tomorrow..

Yes, Jepp charges a software Vendor a flat fee of $500 which includes a year
of updates for each product they sell regardless if the user wants cycle
updates or not. That is why you don't see many vendors offering Jepp
outside of the big manufacturers that can afford to negotiate better deals
through volume sales.

OK, so leaving out the arrangement that Microsoft has with Jepp (it
would be nice if they'd make some sort of update arrangement though,
but I digress)...

So, you're saying the system is such that Jepp makes the product
vendor give them a list of subscribers and charges them
$500/user/year? Seems like King has a huge discount then at $380/yr
for KLN94 downloaded updates, which is their retail price after they
get and then post-process the data for their equipment, verify it, and
get it on the website (which also has to include some markup for the
cost of processing and releasing the file, having people who handle
1800 calls, etc). How does Jepp handle the situation of people who
only update randomly, or quarterly? Get a list monthly? The King
system basically boils down to "you have x downloads, use them
whenever you want - consecutively, every other month, once a year for
the next x years, whatever". It seems to me that a license fee per
product would be more sensible for Jepp "we'll license you to make
updates available for product x, $20k/year please" (a-la what I was
assuming with the Microsoft deal - one time fee, regardless of copies,
or even what a normal vendor software update arrangement would be -
a/la Cisco) rather than the nightmare of attempting to administer a
system of a per-cycle/per-user fee, where it seems the vendor will be
charged even if the end user doesn't collect their update, but I
admittedly have no knowledge of the internal workings of a Jepp source
electronic data license, I haven't had to try and license with them
for source data rather than the packaged end-user product.

I have no qualms with the view (and fully agree) that they're
expensive, monopolies are bad, and since they get their data from the
source originators (like the NOS, etc) we should also, at a minimum,
be able to get directly from NOS in an electronic form the source US
data for low/no cost similar to the way they distribute approach
plates now - free website, pretty cheap CD-ROM subscription, or pretty
cheap printed book.

Dennis

"Peter Clark" wrote in message
.. .
What's funny? You're the one who made the statement that Jep charges
the software publisher 500/yr/copy recurring for each copy of the
database (apparently regardless of updates or whether the end user
continues to use the program) and I asked a logical question since MS
uses Jepp data and doesn't have a price point anywhere near $500/copy.

And the $800 or so /yr for updates I pay King for my 172's Jepp
derived KLN94 and MFD datacards isn't because I'm a simmer.

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:59:02 GMT, "Dennis" wrote:

LOL!! Flight Simmers crack me up sometimes..

Dennis

"Peter Clark" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:30:59 GMT, "Dennis" wrote:

I highly doubt this will actually take effect.. This WILL cause many
companies their business, and its a safe bet the number will be in the
thousands. Jepp is already known for raping people on prices, they want
$500 a year to include their data in your software per copy! Not to
mention
it will cost lives because people simply will fly with outdated data due
to
the high costs Jepp charges.

So Microsoft is eating $450/copy of their ~$50 Flight Simulator which
contains Jepp navdata? And they're then paying $500/year/copy of FS
sold thereafter?

Peter Clark wrote:
I have no qualms with the view (and fully agree) that they're
expensive, monopolies are bad, and since they get their data from the
source originators (like the NOS, etc) we should also, at a minimum,
be able to get directly from NOS in an electronic form the source US
data for low/no cost similar to the way they distribute approach
plates now - free website, pretty cheap CD-ROM subscription, or pretty
cheap printed book.


Actually, you can purchase source data from the FAA, the main database
is called the National Flight Database:
http://naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=na...ts/digital/nfd

The problem is, unlike the NGA Publications (FLIP, DAFIF, ONC and TPC
charts, etc.), the FAA data only covers the US. So, when the NGA stuff
is gone, there will still be plenty of US info. But, if you're in
another country...

--
Shane Partain
http://worldaerodata.com/


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On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:26:11 -0500, Shane Partain
wrote:

Actually, you can purchase source data from the FAA, the main database
is called the National Flight Database:
http://naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=na...ts/digital/nfd

The problem is, unlike the NGA Publications (FLIP, DAFIF, ONC and TPC
charts, etc.), the FAA data only covers the US. So, when the NGA stuff
is gone, there will still be plenty of US info. But, if you're in
another country...

OK, I had heard/read a while back that NOS were thinking about it, but
I didn't know it was complete. Of course, converting that to useful
data for the devices still needs to either be done by the
manufacturer, or a program published which the end user can run and
then upload processed data to the device, but either should be
relatively trivial since the DAFIF data needs to be processed too.

However, if the NOS is directly publishing the data in electronic form
to the public, doesn't that undermine most of the DOD people's
arguments? All that's really left is foreign source data publishers
who contend the DOD is exceeding the copyright on the foreign source
data. Since the US data is available to the public, they could just
publish a DAFIF US-only dataset to the public and the full database to
the authorized internal users. It's not like the data isn't already
coded as to what country the fix/navaid/airport/whatever is in. It
likely boils down to it being easier for them to just stop publishing
their database than creating two databases and fighting lawsuits, and
the rest of the arguments being (as usual in business) fluff.

It still doesn't address how to get the foreign country data, but
shouldn't local users be working with their local authorities to make
the data electronically available in the public domain like the US so
it could be merged with the other public domain datasets to
effectively replace the DAFIF world dataset?

Peter Clark wrote:
However, if the NOS is directly publishing the data in electronic form
to the public, doesn't that undermine most of the DOD people's
arguments? All that's really left is foreign source data publishers
who contend the DOD is exceeding the copyright on the foreign source
data. Since the US data is available to the public, they could just
publish a DAFIF US-only dataset to the public and the full database to
the authorized internal users. It's not like the data isn't already
coded as to what country the fix/navaid/airport/whatever is in. It
likely boils down to it being easier for them to just stop publishing
their database than creating two databases and fighting lawsuits, and
the rest of the arguments being (as usual in business) fluff.


To damn many blood-thirsty IP lawyers.

It still doesn't address how to get the foreign country data, but
shouldn't local users be working with their local authorities to make
the data electronically available in the public domain like the US so
it could be merged with the other public domain datasets to
effectively replace the DAFIF world dataset?


This may be the only answer -- a whole new source. There are probably
plenty of enlightened individuals and organizations willing to share
their data.

--
Shane Partain
http://worldaerodata.com/


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In a previous article, Shane Partain said:
This may be the only answer -- a whole new source. There are probably
plenty of enlightened individuals and organizations willing to share
their data.

Not likely. I've had a bunch of people volunteer to prepare data for my
CoPilot databases for their country, with the exception of one, they all
give me one or two updates, and then stop.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they
start making vacuum cleaners" - Ernst Jan Plugge

Paul Tomblin wrote:
In a previous article, Shane Partain said:

This may be the only answer -- a whole new source. There are probably
plenty of enlightened individuals and organizations willing to share
their data.


Not likely. I've had a bunch of people volunteer to prepare data for my
CoPilot databases for their country, with the exception of one, they all
give me one or two updates, and then stop.



Like the failed open source software model? :-)

--
Shane Partain
http://worldaerodata.com/


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Shane,


Actually, you can purchase source data from the FAA, the main database
is called the National Flight Database:
http://naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=na...ts/digital/nfd

The problem is, unlike the NGA Publications (FLIP, DAFIF, ONC and TPC
charts, etc.), the FAA data only covers the US. So, when the NGA stuff
is gone, there will still be plenty of US info. But, if you're in
another country...

The real limitation of the NFD data is that it does not include Class
B, Class C, and Class D airspace boundaries. It does include special
use airspace boundaries, but my product needs both. Only the DAFIF
provides both...

Dean Wilkinson
http://www.razorsedgesoft.com

Dean Wilkinson wrote:

The real limitation of the NFD data is that it does not include Class
B, Class C, and Class D airspace boundaries. It does include special
use airspace boundaries, but my product needs both. Only the DAFIF
provides both...

I wasn't aware of that. There has been some talk of providing a US-only
DAFIF. But it still sucks that they would be removing the only public
domain global data source.


Dean Wilkinson
http://www.razorsedgesoft.com

--
Shane Partain
http://worldaerodata.com/


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