Why are commuter flights so expensive?

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:14:30 GMT, C Kingsbury wrote:

When I worked for a European company I frequently went out for meals with
senior managers visitng from Germany, the UK, etc. We'd spend $385 on dinner
at a steakhouse where you had a waiter, a busboy, and a sommelier serving
the table and they'd sign the credit card slip for $400. At a Chili's-type

*hehe*
yep, in Europe most likely you don't calculate a percentage as a tip but
more likely you round up the total. And I don't like the idea of *expected*
tipping - even as part of their income. Let the boss pay their wages (even
if this would mean to raise the prices on the menue). I generally only tip
if the service was more than average (friendly and prompt service is part
of the job and is expected).

most likely (my personal experience) the staff at any establishment I've
been so far in the US mostly doesn't deserve any tip at all. They (mostly)
have no knowledge of their job and work this job only besides their college
or whatever. All they can say is "Haa-aiiiiiiii, my name is Janine, and I
am you waitress for tonight - our special for today is ..." and then she
serves the plates with her fingers right beside the food. Disgusting.
[yeah, generalised; there sure are well trained waiters out there in the
US]

place the waitress would be lucky if she got more than change for a dollar.
After the second or third time I gave up trying to explain "American
customs" to them, after all, they were my bosses. The last time we went to
the Palm I thought the waiters were going to jump us on our way out they
were so mad. It was a sign of things to come as the US office failed in
large part because these guys refused to understand that the American market
did not function the same as the European one and they needed a different
strategy.

You're right, the American market follows different rules than the European
market (different values, resulting in different ways for marketing a
placing a product in the market, ...).

#m

--
The policy of the American government is to leave its citizens free,
neither restraining them nor aiding them in their pursuits.
Thomas Jefferson

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:14:30 GMT, C Kingsbury wrote:

When I worked for a European company I frequently went out for meals with
senior managers visitng from Germany, the UK, etc. We'd spend $385 on
dinner
at a steakhouse where you had a waiter, a busboy, and a sommelier serving
the table and they'd sign the credit card slip for $400. At a Chili's-type

*hehe*
yep, in Europe most likely you don't calculate a percentage as a tip but
more likely you round up the total. And I don't like the idea of
*expected*
tipping - even as part of their income. Let the boss pay their wages (even
if this would mean to raise the prices on the menue). I generally only tip
if the service was more than average (friendly and prompt service is part
of the job and is expected).


I would prefer to see the size of portions decrease 'cause I cannot eat it
all and instead of reducing the prices pay a decent wage. I just hate to see
good food going to waste and as for taking it home for the dog - well, I
have no dog besides which its expensive dog food.

"Chris" wrote in message
...
I would prefer to see the size of portions decrease 'cause I cannot eat it
all and instead of reducing the prices pay a decent wage. I just hate to
see good food going to waste and as for taking it home for the dog -
well, I have no dog besides which its expensive dog food.

Don't they have refrigerators in the UK?

Here in the US we do. And when a restaurant serves me twice as much food as
I can eat (which they often do), I simply take the remaining portion home
and have it for a later meal. Storing it in the refrigerator until that
time, of course.

As far as the relationship between portion sizes and prices go, there's a
reason the portions are so large in the first place. It's because portion
sizes don't have all that much to do with prices. Labor, rent, equipment
costs, etc. are a much bigger chunk of what winds up on your bill. Making
portions smaller wouldn't reduce prices by much at all.

Pete

Here in the US we do. And when a restaurant serves me twice as much food
as I can eat (which they often do), I simply take the remaining portion
home and have it for a later meal. Storing it in the refrigerator until
that time, of course.

Mary and I usually split one entree, and order an appetizer or soup.

I'm sure the wait staff hates it, but I just can't eat the portions that
most restaurants serve -- and if I can, I shouldn't!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:y2tqd.103738$V41.51654@attbi_s52...
Here in the US we do. And when a restaurant serves me twice as much food
as I can eat (which they often do), I simply take the remaining portion
home and have it for a later meal. Storing it in the refrigerator until
that time, of course.

Mary and I usually split one entree, and order an appetizer or soup.

I'm sure the wait staff hates it, but I just can't eat the portions that
most restaurants serve -- and if I can, I shouldn't!

That's not the point though.

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:14:30 GMT, C Kingsbury wrote:

*hehe*
yep, in Europe most likely you don't calculate a percentage as a tip but
more likely you round up the total. And I don't like the idea of
*expected*
tipping - even as part of their income. Let the boss pay their wages (even
if this would mean to raise the prices on the menue). I generally only tip
if the service was more than average (friendly and prompt service is part
of the job and is expected).

Just keep in mind that your average waitress is paid somewhere around
$3/hour by the restaraunt. Thus if you don't tip, the person basically
doesn't get paid. You may find the "system" objectionable but don't take it
out on the person at the bottom of the food chain. When in Rome...

FWIW, the "system" does make some sense. First, it clearly connects pay to
volume of work. On a busy night you work harder and get paid more. This is
fairer to the staff and simpler for management. Second, it connects pay to
quality very directly. The waitress is essentially paid by the customer
after the service has been delivered, allowing you to vote with your wallet.

I am one of those who feels tipping is getting a little out of hand- more
and more people expect it and the percentage people think they're entitled
to keeps going up. But, I have no doubt that the alternative would lead to
much worse service.

-cwk.

"Colin W Kingsbury" wrote in message
k.net...
[...]
FWIW, the "system" does make some sense. First, it clearly connects pay to
volume of work. On a busy night you work harder and get paid more. This is
fairer to the staff and simpler for management.

True. However, management could simply either pay waitstaff on commission,
or even easier for management, just prorate their pay based on gross
receipts.

Second, it connects pay to
quality very directly. The waitress is essentially paid by the customer
after the service has been delivered, allowing you to vote with your
wallet.

That's the theory. However, in reality you have a wide variety of customers
with a wide variety of tipping styles. You never know which guy you've
worked your ass off for is going to stiff you, and you never know which fat
cat is going to drop a load of cash even though you let his water glass sit
empty for three minutes.

Now whether waitstaff generally are in favor of this little game of
roulette, I don't know. A lot of waiters I know get paid handsomely, mostly
through tips, and they like their jobs. But as a customer, I have to say
that I find tipping to be an archaic, inefficient custom.

I am one of those who feels tipping is getting a little out of hand- more
and more people expect it and the percentage people think they're entitled
to keeps going up. But, I have no doubt that the alternative would lead to
much worse service.

I have a HUGE doubt that the alternative would lead to much worse service.
A food service business will only do as well as their waitstaff performs.
We may tip low for poor service, but more importantly, we just don't go
back.

A local Italian restaurant was our favorite for several years, but there was
only one good waiter there. We always made sure we sat in his section when
we went there, and we got the five-star treatment every visit. We tipped
him well. But, when he had a falling out with the management and went to
work somewhere else, we only gave the restaurant a couple more tries before
deciding that there was no hope of ensuring that we got good service there.

Our response would have been exactly the same had service charges been
included in the bill. With or without tipping, service quality depends a
LOT more on repeat business and management's ability to train and keep
competent waitstaff around.

And as far as tipping "getting a little out of hand", don't even get me
started on the recent (last 5-10 years) tradition of people in what are
really production jobs (behind-the-counter positions, primarily) expecting
tips too. It's one thing if you're really a waiter who just happens to work
behind a lunch counter instead of cruising the tables. But when you're just
serving ice cream to a steady queue of people who walk right up to you?
Forget it.

Someone tell me again what all this flying stuff is doing in a food service
newsgroup? I seem to be a bit confused...

Pete

Colin W Kingsbury wrote:

Just keep in mind that your average waitress is paid somewhere around
$3/hour by the restaraunt. Thus if you don't tip, the person basically
doesn't get paid.

The better alternative would be to pay them fair wages in the first place.

FWIW, the "system" does make some sense. First, it clearly connects pay to
volume of work. On a busy night you work harder and get paid more. This is
fairer to the staff and simpler for management.

Easier for the management? Certainly. But fairer to the staff? No!
Getting enough work is the management's job. The tipping system just
puts the risk on the employees.

Stefan

"Stefan" wrote

The better alternative would be to pay them fair wages in the first place.

Easier for the management? Certainly. But fairer to the staff? No!
Getting enough work is the management's job. The tipping system just
puts the risk on the employees.

Stefan

True, but with the risk on the employer, he will pay wages in line with
little or no education.. Where else do you know of that a high school
graduate (or not) with good people skills, and a good memory (or not) can
bring home over 200 bucks in 6 or 7 hours?

Waiting in a good establishment, is the answer. Some nights, 200 bucks will
not be brought home, but some nights a lot more. Makes taking the risk more
worthwhile, don't you think?\

After seeing the kind of service you get in some European restaurants, I
think tipping makes a big difference in the quality of the service.
--
Jim in NC


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"Morgans" wrote in message
...
True, but with the risk on the employer, he will pay wages in line with
little or no education.

Define "education". Those who make a "high income" from waiting have
extensive experience in the business. They have every bit as much
"education", in their field of work, as a college graduate. And there are
very few people in the table waiting industry who actually make anything
anyone would call a "high income".

Where else do you know of that a high school
graduate (or not) with good people skills, and a good memory (or not) can
bring home over 200 bucks in 6 or 7 hours?

All sorts of industries, including the computer industry. No, wait...I take
that back. You don't need good people skills in the computer industry.

Waiting in a good establishment, is the answer.

Without experience, no one is going to get a job at a "good establishment".
With or without a college degree. Starting wages for a waiter suck.

Some nights, 200 bucks will
not be brought home, but some nights a lot more. Makes taking the risk
more
worthwhile, don't you think?\

Plenty of people make that much money (and lots lots more) without nearly
the risk. More to the point, the quantity of money that comes in isn't a
direct result of the risk (as it might be in gambling large sums of money),
so it makes no sense to justify the risk simply based on the chance of large
sums of money.

After seeing the kind of service you get in some European restaurants, I
think tipping makes a big difference in the quality of the service.

After seeing the kind of service I get in some American restaurants, I think
tipping is a useless custom that makes no difference in the quality of the
service.

If tipping is such a great idea, why is it that I constantly run into lousy
service in restaurants, right here in America? The answer is that quality
of service has WAY more to do with how the restaurant is managed than it
does with the custom of tipping.

Pete