WAS: How safe is it, really?

Andrew Gideon wrote:

That statement was made during an ASF presentation I attended a while ago.
It puzzled me. Why would a IR pilot fly VFR into IMC?

I'm not sure myself, but I do remember an incident that was presented in a
safety videotape. The pilot involved intended an IFR flight from Frederick, MD
to the west. She was delayed in a business meeting and discovered when she got
to the airport that her flight plan had expired. Rather than file a new one, she
took off VFR under low ceilings intending to file in the air.

Frederick is under the control of the Baltimore ATC. The ground rises to the
west. Baltimore wouldn't clear her until they could pick her up on radar, and
you have to get pretty high for them to do that in that area. While trying to
get clearance and climbing to avoid terrain, the windshield went opaque.

She came out of the clouds in a spiral at over a 70 degree bank, recovered a few
hundred feet above the ground, and returned to Frederick to file a flight plan.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Andrew Gideon wrote:

That statement was made during an ASF presentation I attended a while
ago.
It puzzled me. Why would a IR pilot fly VFR into IMC?

I'm not sure myself, but I do remember an incident that was presented in a
safety videotape. The pilot involved intended an IFR flight from
Frederick, MD
to the west. She was delayed in a business meeting and discovered when she
got
to the airport that her flight plan had expired. Rather than file a new
one, she
took off VFR under low ceilings intending to file in the air.

Frederick is under the control of the Baltimore ATC. The ground rises to
the
west. Baltimore wouldn't clear her until they could pick her up on radar,
and
you have to get pretty high for them to do that in that area. While trying
to
get clearance and climbing to avoid terrain, the windshield went opaque.

She came out of the clouds in a spiral at over a 70 degree bank, recovered
a few
hundred feet above the ground, and returned to Frederick to file a flight
plan.


She had originally filed a IFR flight pan, but lost control in the clouds?
Certainly the flight plan was a small part of the problem.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

G.R. Patterson III wrote
Andrew Gideon wrote:

That statement was made during an ASF presentation I attended a while ago.
It puzzled me. Why would a IR pilot fly VFR into IMC?


I'm not sure myself, but I do remember an incident that was presented in a
safety videotape. The pilot involved intended an IFR flight from Frederick, MD
to the west. She was delayed in a business meeting and discovered when she got
to the airport that her flight plan had expired. Rather than file a new one, she
took off VFR under low ceilings intending to file in the air.

Frederick is under the control of the Baltimore ATC. The ground rises to the
west. Baltimore wouldn't clear her until they could pick her up on radar, and
you have to get pretty high for them to do that in that area. While trying to
get clearance and climbing to avoid terrain, the windshield went opaque.

She came out of the clouds in a spiral at over a 70 degree bank, recovered a few
hundred feet above the ground, and returned to Frederick to file a flight plan.

Is there some part of this story that I'm missing? Apparently she
almost immediately lost control of the plane once she got into
the clouds. So when she gets down on the ground she files a
flight plan and presumably then goes right back up into the same
clouds.
What assurance is there that she won't again become disoriented?

Peter wrote:

Is there some part of this story that I'm missing?

Transition to flying by instruments when you've been flying visually is not
simple and takes time. The airlines learned this in the 30s and will have one
pilot already on the gauges during takeoff when the aircraft will be in IMC
shortly.

An instrument rated pilot goes on the gauges before entering IMC and can be
expected to do well at it. Those who enter IMC unexpectedly may lose control of
the aircraft during the transition to instrument flight.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

G.R. Patterson III wrote:
Peter wrote:

Is there some part of this story that I'm missing?


Transition to flying by instruments when you've been flying visually is not
simple and takes time. The airlines learned this in the 30s and will have one
pilot already on the gauges during takeoff when the aircraft will be in IMC
shortly.

An instrument rated pilot goes on the gauges before entering IMC and can be
expected to do well at it. Those who enter IMC unexpectedly may lose control of
the aircraft during the transition to instrument flight.

I'd still be concerned to fly IMC without reasonable confidence in the
ability to recover from any disturbance that causes momentary loss of
control. And in the case cited it doesn't sound as if the entrance into
IMC should have been that unexpected.

"Peter" wrote in message
G.R. Patterson III wrote:
Transition to flying by instruments when you've been flying visually is
not
simple and takes time. The airlines learned this in the 30s and will have
one
pilot already on the gauges during takeoff when the aircraft will be in
IMC
shortly.

An instrument rated pilot goes on the gauges before entering IMC and can
be
expected to do well at it. Those who enter IMC unexpectedly may lose
control of
the aircraft during the transition to instrument flight.

I'd still be concerned to fly IMC without reasonable confidence in the
ability to recover from any disturbance that causes momentary loss of
control.

Aerobatics under the hood.

And in the case cited it doesn't sound as if the entrance into
IMC should have been that unexpected.

It isn't unexpected. It's denied. This scenario happens to everyone that
flies in marginal weather, especially at night. If you're VFR, one
shouldn't *have* to be flying almost solely by the gauges. So, as the
weather gets worse, instead of acknowledging the defeat of their visual /
balance sensory systems, the pilot tries ever harder to maintain visual
reference. It takes discipline and training to make the correct decision as
to when you're no longer in VMC, whether you're legal or not. (And, if
you're not IFR, you aren't. But, too bad. Get over it and deal.) Hazy
nights with no moon, in unpopulated areas are an invitation to trouble
whether you're flying under VFR or IFR. It's so easy to be using some
random light source (a streetlight or building light, bright star, etc.) as
a reference. It works fine until the pilot is distracted for a moment and
then mistakenly chooses some other light source at a slightly different
angle as a reference. The pilot, now thinking that the difference in angle
is due to their wings not being level, begins a set of manoeuvres based on
erroneous information. If the error isn't quickly, the results are, at
best, sobering. I've personally experienced something like this when, on a
night X/C in a deserted area, no moon, haze, I mistook another aircraft for
a bright star. Now, the unobscurred moon or an unmistakable mass of bright
lights on the ground, like a city, are the only visual refs I trust at
night. And, even then, at the first hint of upcoming IMC (it's often like
looking for a ghost or a cloaked Romulan Vessel by noticing subtle anomalies
in the sky ahead) I'm psyched to transition to instruments.

le moo

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Peter wrote:

Is there some part of this story that I'm missing?

Transition to flying by instruments when you've been flying visually is
not
simple and takes time. The airlines learned this in the 30s and will have
one
pilot already on the gauges during takeoff when the aircraft will be in
IMC
shortly.

An instrument rated pilot goes on the gauges before entering IMC and can
be
expected to do well at it. Those who enter IMC unexpectedly may lose
control of
the aircraft during the transition to instrument flight.

I think your conflating the transition to instruments with the transition to
visual after and approach.

Keeping the aircraft upright , during transition, is not that difficult (not
the easy, but not that difficult either).


Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO