History Channel Show reminder

You are correct that Byrd exhibited a great deal of courage, with some
frequency. ...... However, he seemed to go weird
when it came to his flights. The books by Balchen and others outline
the frustration they had with his refusal to do any actual navigating
on their flights.

Thanks for taking the time to write a lengthy response, Rick. I
haven't read Balchen's book. I guess I should. I did read two books
quite critical of Byrd, Richard Montague's _Oceans, Poles, and
Airmen_; and Dean Smith's _By the Seat of my Pants_, ten or more years
ago. I don't recall anything about his "going weird," though, or
refusing to navigate.

I have a great deal of admiration for Byrd, but in
reading the historical record, can't figure out why he would behave as
he did during his expeditions.

Perhaps you should entertain the hypothesis that he did NOT behave
that way; that the charges were fictitious, motivated by jealousy,
personal dislike, or some such reason. As you mentioned, he wasn't
generous about sharing the credit for his achievements. There was
also a lot of resentment, in Europe, that Byrd had beaten the Airship
Norge, a European venture, to the Pole.

As to the North Pole flight, the pilot, Floyd Bennett admitted on his
death bed that they had simply flown out of sight of Spitsbergen and
made circles for 15 hours because of an oil leak on one engine.

I find that extremely hard to believe, Rick. It contradicts
everything else we (or I) know about Byrd. I do recall that Bennett
crawled out of the cabin in mid-flight to deal with that oil leak,
but I never heard of that death-bed confession.

I have no trouble believing Byrd didn't reach the pole. His Sun
Compass was excellent at providing directional information, but it
provided no ground-speed info at all.

As you mentioned, Bennett died of pneumonia in Jeffrey Hale Hospital
in Quebec, Canada, the result of attempting, although he was already
ill, a flight to rescue the crew of the Bremen, who had made a forced
landing on Greenly Island in the Gulf of st. Lawrence. Given the
circumstances of his death, and his heroic reputation, he was no doubt
being hovered over by a staff of doctors and nurses, trying to keep
him alive. Did they report such a confession at that time?

Byrd's navigational markings on his charts were made on the steamship
on the voyage home.

How can we be certain of that?

They did not match the weather data that was available for the flight (winds),....

I would imagine any data available for such a desolate, uninhabited
part of the globe, in those days, was hardly reliable. I'm sure you
know that even today, forecast winds are usually the most undependable
part of any weather briefing.

The History Channel program implied strongly that Byrd was the pilot
on his flights. He never was. He never did any flying on his
expeditions.

Except for doing the flying while Bennett was out there dealing with
the oil leak, that is probably true. But I don't think that is a
criticism. Navigating that flight was a far greater challenge than
Bennett's stick-and-rudder chores, although I'm not slighting what it
takes to do them for 16 hours.

As I recall, in aviations early days, it was customary for the
"captain" of an airplane not to do the flying, just as the captain of
a naval vessel does not hold the wheel. (I don't think the Commander
of NASA's space shots is the pilot, either.)

It also implied that he was flying when the Fokker
Trimotor he purchased for the Atlantic flight crashed.

I didn't get that impression. IIRC, Anthony Fokker was flying it,
wasn't he? (In any case, programs on the History Channel are loaded
with mistakes, so such an error wouldn't be unusual. In fact, an
error-free program would be much more unusual.

For reasons no one knows, Byrd refused to take off. His continual
delays angered Fokker so much that he withdrew from the project and
nearly took his airplane with him.

I don't know, either, but I do seem to recall that Lindbergh had to
wait around for the wx to improve. "Refusing to take off" is one of
the smartest things a pilot can do. As you agreed, earlier, we can
hardly attribute his delay to cowardice.

Balchen and Acosta both wrote that Byrd provided no navigational assistance to
them during the flight across the Atlantic.

Is that in Balchen's _Come North With Me_? I see we have that here in
the Penn State library. I can find nothing in the catalog by Acosta,
though.

For the South Pole trip there were four airplanes and four pilots
taken to Little America....

When I was in the Marines, I had the pleasure of knowing two
extraordinary men who had been selected to go to the South Pole with
Byrd on Operation High Jump in 1946. One was M.Sgt. Mincey, a radio
oerator in VMR 252; and another M.Sgt whose name escapes me in my
senility; he was a navigator in VMR-153; both squadrons were in MAG
21, as was I. (In the Marines, at least in those days, navigators
were enlisted men.) Regrettably, I have lost track of both in the
ensuing half-century; I suspect both are dead by now. Both were older
than I and would be pushing 90 by now.

As I recall the navigator had developed some kind of grid-system for
navigating in the polar regions, and was seriously injured in a crash.
A mountain in Antarctica was named for him. Did you encounter
anything about either of those men in any of your reading about Byrd?

vince norris

Vince,

I did read two books
quite critical of Byrd, Richard Montague's _Oceans, Poles, and
Airmen_; and Dean Smith's _By the Seat of my Pants_, ten or more years
ago. I don't recall anything about his "going weird," though, or
refusing to navigate.

You've read two very good books, I still haven't gotten a copy of
Smith's book, but will do so. I'm also looking for Gould's as I've
seen some excerpts from his writings regarding strange behavior by
Byrd on the expeditions themselves and examples of his making his map
entries in pencil and then, on the ground, when challenged by other
observers aboard the airplane, going into another room and changing
the notations.

Perhaps you should entertain the hypothesis that he did NOT behave
that way; that the charges were fictitious, motivated by jealousy,
personal dislike, or some such reason. As you mentioned, he wasn't
generous about sharing the credit for his achievements. There was
also a lot of resentment, in Europe, that Byrd had beaten the Airship
Norge, a European venture, to the Pole.

Good points. It is known for certain that the Norge made it over the
north pole and carried on to Alaska. Interestingly, Amundsen never
claimed to have made it over the north pole prior to Byrd and always
gave Byrd great credit. Amundsen could have stopped Byrd completely
when Bennett and Byrd broke the skis on the Josephine Ford, but sent
Balchen over to Byrd and Balchen showed them how to rebuild the skis
by reinforcing them with lifeboat oars sliced lengthwise and then how
to use a blowtorch rather than wax to prepare the surface. He also
suggested they takeoff at night when the snow would not be sticky. A
year ago The Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Mi., redid its aviation
display (it's an amazing collection) and set up the Josephine Ford in
a diorama with life size figures of Byrd, Bennett and Balchen to
recreate the moment when Balchen approached the others about repairs
to the skis.

As to the North Pole flight, the pilot, Floyd Bennett admitted on his
death bed that they had simply flown out of sight of Spitsbergen and
made circles for 15 hours because of an oil leak on one engine.

I find that extremely hard to believe, Rick. It contradicts
everything else we (or I) know about Byrd. I do recall that Bennett
crawled out of the cabin in mid-flight to deal with that oil leak,
but I never heard of that death-bed confession.

Just checked a couple of sources. I was mistaken. The flying around
for 15 hours comment was made by a rival, not Bennett. Bennett, in
the hospital in Canada, simply repeated to Balchen that he and Byrd
had not gotten to the north pole. Bennett and Balchen flew the
Josephine Ford all around the U.S. following the artic flight.
Balchen was a test pilot for Fokker and kept extensive performance
data on the Josephine Ford during the flights because he and Bennett
intended to use it for a trans-Atlantic flight. It cruised on wheels
(without skis mounted) at 70 knots TAS. (A nearly identical Fokker
3m, the Southern Cross, cruised at roughly the same speed, within 2
knots.) Balchen and Bennett confirmed the performance data and
Bennett supposedly told Balchen that on skis the airplane cruised at
68 knots TAS. Balchen then asked Bennett how he and Byrd had made the
round trip in the time they were gone. Bennett said that they hadn't
and that it didn't matter anymore, apparently because the celebrations
and awards had taken place.

I have no trouble believing Byrd didn't reach the pole. His Sun
Compass was excellent at providing directional information, but it
provided no ground-speed info at all.

As you mentioned, Bennett died of pneumonia in Jeffrey Hale Hospital
in Quebec, Canada, the result of attempting, although he was already
ill, a flight to rescue the crew of the Bremen, who had made a forced
landing on Greenly Island in the Gulf of st. Lawrence. Given the
circumstances of his death, and his heroic reputation, he was no doubt
being hovered over by a staff of doctors and nurses, trying to keep
him alive. Did they report such a confession at that time?

The confession was made to Balchen, Bennett's best friend. The two of
them had flown the Ford that was later named the Floyd Bennett to the
Gulf to participate in the rescue (and to get publicity for raising
funds for Byrd's Antarctic expedition.)

Byrd's navigational markings on his charts were made on the steamship
on the voyage home.

How can we be certain of that?

Crew member's reports, I believe it's in _Oceans, Poles and Airmen_.

They did not match the weather data that was available for the flight (winds),....

I would imagine any data available for such a desolate, uninhabited
part of the globe, in those days, was hardly reliable. I'm sure you
know that even today, forecast winds are usually the most undependable
part of any weather briefing.

Agree, however, there were weather reporting stations in the Arctic
and there is a historical record of the location of the highs and
lows, thus the general wind direction is known (although I agree it's
not perfectly accurate). There is a detailed report on the weather
that was made after the fact when the National Geographic Society
accepted Byrd's rather sparse data without challenge, which upset a
number of folks who felt that Amundsen was first. At least one
meteorologist published data on the subject and I believe one is
reported in Montague's book, in an appendix.

The History Channel program implied strongly that Byrd was the pilot
on his flights. He never was. He never did any flying on his
expeditions.

Except for doing the flying while Bennett was out there dealing with
the oil leak, that is probably true. But I don't think that is a
criticism. Navigating that flight was a far greater challenge than
Bennett's stick-and-rudder chores, although I'm not slighting what it
takes to do them for 16 hours.

Good points. In doing an article that included the Josephine Ford a
while back, the museum let me "cross the ropes" and get in the
airplane. I hadn't realized until then that it was open cockpit.
Bennett and Byrd were truly men of iron.

As I recall, in aviations early days, it was customary for the
"captain" of an airplane not to do the flying, just as the captain of
a naval vessel does not hold the wheel. (I don't think the Commander
of NASA's space shots is the pilot, either.)

To my knowledge, only on Pan Am flying boats did the "Master of Flying
Boats" reach such an exhalted position that he no longer deigned to
touch the controls. Gotta check on the shuttle, I'll email a friend
who had four missions. No doubt that Byrd was the commander of the
flights.

It also implied that he was flying when the Fokker
Trimotor he purchased for the Atlantic flight crashed.

I didn't get that impression. IIRC, Anthony Fokker was flying it,
wasn't he? (In any case, programs on the History Channel are loaded
with mistakes, so such an error wouldn't be unusual. In fact, an
error-free program would be much more unusual.

You're right, Tony Fokker was flying. I felt that the program at
least implied that Byrd was flying and it didn't make it clear that
the accident was in no means the fault of the pilot.

For reasons no one knows, Byrd refused to take off. His continual
delays angered Fokker so much that he withdrew from the project and
nearly took his airplane with him.

I don't know, either, but I do seem to recall that Lindbergh had to
wait around for the wx to improve. "Refusing to take off" is one of
the smartest things a pilot can do. As you agreed, earlier, we can
hardly attribute his delay to cowardice.

Byrd was the first on the field (the Bellanca was going through all
sorts of problems due to the crazy owner of the airplane) and both
Fokker and Balchen wrote of frustration with Byrd not going when the
weather was reported to be good and then, three weeks after Lindbergh
went, abruptly decided to go when the weather forecast was awful,
making the public comment that "modern airliners must be able to fly
in all kinds of weather". Balchen was almost frantic after getting
the same forecast for improving weather that Lindbergh got, because he
was trying to get the crew together and launch but Byrd wouldn't go
due to the "christening" ceremony that was to take place the next
afternoon.

Balchen and Acosta both wrote that Byrd provided no navigational assistance to
them during the flight across the Atlantic.

Is that in Balchen's _Come North With Me_? I see we have that here in
the Penn State library. I can find nothing in the catalog by Acosta,
though.

Balchen wrote in either _Come North With Me_ or another book that he
and Acosta had gotten the airplane above the clouds and were enjoying
looking at the stars and wondering where they were when they got a
note from Byrd saying that the overcast precluded star shots.

For the South Pole trip there were four airplanes and four pilots
taken to Little America....

When I was in the Marines, I had the pleasure of knowing two
extraordinary men who had been selected to go to the South Pole with
Byrd on Operation High Jump in 1946. One was M.Sgt. Mincey, a radio
oerator in VMR 252; and another M.Sgt whose name escapes me in my
senility; he was a navigator in VMR-153; both squadrons were in MAG
21, as was I. (In the Marines, at least in those days, navigators
were enlisted men.) Regrettably, I have lost track of both in the
ensuing half-century; I suspect both are dead by now. Both were older
than I and would be pushing 90 by now.

As I recall the navigator had developed some kind of grid-system for
navigating in the polar regions, and was seriously injured in a crash.
A mountain in Antarctica was named for him. Did you encounter
anything about either of those men in any of your reading about Byrd?

There is a web site on Byrd that gives the names of those who served
with him in Antarctica (I found it on google by typing in: Byrd
Balchen "South Pole" Don't recall if those names were there. You are
correct that they use grid navigation. A friend of mine who flew
helos in Antarctica as a civilian contractor for a couple of summers
(I never figured out why an ex-Army helo pilot would go where it was
so cold) once explained grid navigation to me, but her eyes were so
captivating I'm afraid that I didn't pay as much attention to what she
was saying as I should have.

vince norris

Rick, a retired USAF friend passes his copies of _Air Force_ magazine
on to me when he finishes them; the one he gave me yesterday, the
November 2004 issue, has an article on Byrd and Balchen. I thought it
might present some new evidence, but I found nothing startling in it.
It did say that Byrd and Balchen had become "estranged" and that
Bennett had told Balchen that he and Byrd had not reached the North
Pole.

Just checked a couple of sources....... The flying around for 15 hours comment was made by a rival, not Bennett.

Since Byrd and Bennett were out of sight of any human being, and there
was no radar in those days, no rival can know what they did. Sounds
like "sour grapes."

Seems to me that the possibility that Byrd never intended to fly to
the Pole, that the whole expedition was a hoax, is just too wild to
have any credibility.

That leaves us with three possibilities:

1. Byrd intended to fly to the pole, but after the oil leak
developed, he aborted the attempt and circled for 15 hours.

2. Byrd intended to fly to the pole, even after the the oil leak, but
made some kind of error in dead reckoning, and failed to reach the
Pole although he thought he had. Perhaps he recognized this at some
point and "adjusted" the data.

3. Byrd reached the Pole.

It seems to me that 2 is much more likely than 1; and 3, although
questionable, cannot be ruled out entirely.

It is virtually impossible to imagine that Byrd, an Annapolis-trained
navigator, would have neglected to calculate, while planning the
flight, an ETA at the Pole and an ETA back at Spitzbergen.

Now, if he *knowingly* turned back before reaching the pole, wouldn't
he have made certain he did not arrive back at Spitzbergen too early?
It would have been pretty dumb not to do that, wouldn't it?

He could have instructed Bennett to throttle back, or to circle.
Consider that Bennett had no navigational gear in the cockpit. How in
the world would he, Bennett, know they had not reached the Pole,
unless Byrd had told him, either (a), explicitly, or (b) by tipping
him off by requesting he circle or otherwise delay their arrival back
at Spitzbergen? There is no way, just by looking out the windshield,
that Bennett could know whether he is is, or is not, over the Pole.

......... there were weather reporting stations in the Arctic

Sorry, Rick, I still remain stubbornly skeptical about wind reports.
It's about 700 miles from Spitzbergen to the Pole, and it's all water
or ice. Rarely if ever would the winds be the same over such a large
area. I doubt very much there was a single weather reporting station
anywhere along that route, or even near it, much less one capable of
measuring winds at altitude.

...and there is a historical record of the location of the highs and
lows,....

How could the locations of highs and lows over the polar region be
known with any accuracy back in 1926, when no one was there, and
meteorology was primitive compared to today?

Perhaps I'm ignorant of the state of meteorology in those days, but
I'm willing to be enlightened.

To my knowledge, only on Pan Am flying boats did the "Master of Flying
Boats" reach such an exalted position that he no longer deigned to
touch the controls.

I think it was common in military aviation. I recall reading that in
WW I observation aircraft, the observer was typically an officer in
command of the aircraft, and the pilot was an enlisted man who did
what the observer told him. I believe that was also the practice in
the U.S. Air Service.

... both Fokker and Balchen wrote of frustration with Byrd not going when the
weather was reported to be good and then, three weeks after Lindbergh
went, abruptly decided to go when the weather forecast was awful,
making the public comment that "modern airliners must be able to fly
in all kinds of weather".

Now that raises an interesting question in my mind! Do you suppose
Byrd was deliberately waiting for BAD weather, to prove that "modern
airliners" can fly in all kinds of weather?

There is a web site on Byrd that gives the names of those who served
with him in Antarctica (I found it on google by typing in: Byrd
Balchen "South Pole"

After several ties, I've been unable to get that site. Could you
possibly send the URL?

A friend of mine....... once explained grid navigation to me, but her eyes were so
captivating I'm afraid that I didn't pay as much attention to what she
was saying as I should have.

I don't blame you one damn bit. Could you get her to explain it to me
sometime?

vince norris

Vince,

Rick, a retired USAF friend passes his copies of _Air Force_
magazine
on to me when he finishes them; the one he gave me yesterday, the
November 2004 issue, has an article on Byrd and Balchen. I thought it
might present some new evidence, but I found nothing startling in it.
It did say that Byrd and Balchen had become "estranged" and that
Bennett had told Balchen that he and Byrd had not reached the North
Pole.

What is amazing to me is that Byrd and Balchen are buried within
several feet of each other at Arlington National Cemetery. Byrd
attacked Balchen pretty viciously prior to the end of Byrd's life,
apparently because Balchen had gotten publicity for his rescues in
Greenland (including landing a PBY, gear up on the ice cap to pick up
downed flight crew) and in Alaska. Balchen never publicly said
anything negative about Bryd as a person, yet wsa the victim of some
nasty smears by Byrd and then by Byrd's estate, which forced Balchen
to delete the performance data on the Fokker 3m from his autobiograhy
under threat of being suied by Byrd's estate (which had a lot more
money than a retired Colonel could lay his hands on).

Seems to me that the possibility that Byrd never intended to fly to
the Pole, that the whole expedition was a hoax, is just too wild to
have any credibility.

That leaves us with three possibilities:

1. Byrd intended to fly to the pole, but after the oil leak
developed, he aborted the attempt and circled for 15 hours.

2. Byrd intended to fly to the pole, even after the the oil leak, but
made some kind of error in dead reckoning, and failed to reach the
Pole although he thought he had. Perhaps he recognized this at some
point and "adjusted" the data.

3. Byrd reached the Pole.

It seems to me that 2 is much more likely than 1; and 3, although
questionable, cannot be ruled out entirely.

It is virtually impossible to imagine that Byrd, an Annapolis-trained
navigator, would have neglected to calculate, while planning the
flight, an ETA at the Pole and an ETA back at Spitzbergen.

Now, if he *knowingly* turned back before reaching the pole, wouldn't
he have made certain he did not arrive back at Spitzbergen too early?
It would have been pretty dumb not to do that, wouldn't it?

He could have instructed Bennett to throttle back, or to circle.
Consider that Bennett had no navigational gear in the cockpit. How in
the world would he, Bennett, know they had not reached the Pole,
unless Byrd had told him, either (a), explicitly, or (b) by tipping
him off by requesting he circle or otherwise delay their arrival back
at Spitzbergen? There is no way, just by looking out the windshield,
that Bennett could know whether he is is, or is not, over the Pole.

I suspect Byrd turned back too early, possibly because of concern
about the oil leak.

......... there were weather reporting stations in the Arctic

Sorry, Rick, I still remain stubbornly skeptical about wind reports.
It's about 700 miles from Spitzbergen to the Pole, and it's all water
or ice. Rarely if ever would the winds be the same over such a large
area. I doubt very much there was a single weather reporting station
anywhere along that route, or even near it, much less one capable of
measuring winds at altitude.

...and there is a historical record of the location of the highs and
lows,....


Modern weather reporting and forecasting developed during World War I
(which is why the use of the word "front" came about. It got
sophisticated fairly rapidly with the ability to identify low and high
pressure centers by the end of the war, based on widely scattered
reporting stations. The next big bumps in weather technology came
about during the space age. Without having it in front of me, the
university that got involved in this issue had a meteorology professor
publish the information that was available for the area at the time
(remember there were reporting points all around the artic in the
Soviet Union, Alaska, Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Spitsbergen, Norway,
Finland, etc.). While the data isn't perfect by any means, there was
nothing to show that there was enough instability in the area, with a
fast moving front that would cause a strong tailwind for both portions
of the trip, north and south. Had there been, the weather would
probably also not have been VFR. (The weather forecasting was
sophisticated enough to predict whether the weather would be VFR for
the routes used both by Byrd and Amundsen.) I keep thinking the
meteorologist report and speed calculations was included in Montague's
book. He was a reporter who covered a lot of the long
distance/exploration flights in the '20s and '30s and was one who was
suspicious of Byrd's claims.

... both Fokker and Balchen wrote of frustration with Byrd not going when the
weather was reported to be good and then, three weeks after Lindbergh
went, abruptly decided to go when the weather forecast was awful,
making the public comment that "modern airliners must be able to fly
in all kinds of weather".

Now that raises an interesting question in my mind! Do you suppose
Byrd was deliberately waiting for BAD weather, to prove that "modern
airliners" can fly in all kinds of weather?

Doubtful, Byrd's repeated public pronouncements prior to Lindbergh
taking off was that he was waiting for very good weather because
safety was paramount. He kept saying that for a while after Lindbergh
made it, but then made the "modern airliners" comment and launched
when the forecasts were awful. No one writing about the flight has
ever provided a theory for Byrd's behavior in delaying departure for
so long and then abruptly going when he did. Interetingly, Byrd had
had a hill built of dirt so the Fokker could start its takeoff roll
with an assist. The tailskid was tied with a rope to allow Acosta
(pilot flying for takeoff) to get full power before the airplane
moved. The rope broke at about half throttle, yet Acosta managed to
recover from the surprise and make a masterful takeoff of a horribly
overloaded airplane.

There is a web site on Byrd that gives the names of those who served
with him in Antarctica (I found it on google by typing in: Byrd
Balchen "South Pole"

After several ties, I've been unable to get that site. Could you
possibly send the URL?

I've been looking again and haven't found it yet. I did find:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0020594/fullcredits that might be of
assistance. I'll keep looking and if I can locate that site again,
I'll post it.

Ah, ha! Just found the one I wanted, from Congressional Gold Medal
recipients, it's the one I referenced:
http://www.congressionalgoldmedal.com/RichardEByrd.htm

Hope that helps.


All the best,
Rick

What is amazing to me is that Byrd and Balchen are buried within
several feet of each other at Arlington National Cemetery.

Possibly arranged by some bureaucrat who was unaware of any animosity
between the two, and thought it would be appropriate to bury them
close to each other.

Balchen ..... was the victim of some
nasty smears by Byrd and then by Byrd's estate, which forced Balchen
to delete the performance data on the Fokker 3m from his autobiograhy
under threat of being suied by Byrd's estate (which had a lot more
money than a retired Colonel could lay his hands on).

I'm not a lawyer (I understand you are), but it's my impression one
cannot libel dead person; thus Byrd's estate did not have a case.

I suspect Byrd turned back too early, possibly because of concern
about the oil leak.

That is certainly a reasonable suspicion.

Modern weather reporting and forecasting developed during World War I
(which is why the use of the word "front" came about.

Never heard that before!

There is a web site on Byrd that gives the names of those who served
with him in Antarctica (I found it on google by typing in: Byrd
Balchen "South Pole"

Ah, ha! Just found the one I wanted, from Congressional Gold Medal
recipients, it's the one I referenced:
http://www.congressionalgoldmedal.com/RichardEByrd.htm

That's dated 1930, so it wouldn't have anything about later trips.

But fortunately, an old friend of mine remembered the name of that
navigator; it's Bob Spann. Googling, I found a site that lists
Antarctic peaks:

http://geonames.usgs.gov/stategaz/ANTARCTICA.TXT

and there I found:

Spann, Mount 00014312 8203S
04121W
A mountain, 925 m, marking the N extremity of the Panzarini Hills and
the Argentina Range, at the NE end of the Pensacola Mountains.
Discovered and photographed on Jan. 13, 1956 in the course of a USN
transcontinental nonstop plan flight from McMurdo Sound to Weddell Sea
and return. Named by US-ACAN for Staff Sgt. Robert C. Spann, USMC,
navigator of the P2V-2N Neptune aircraft during this flight.

So he wasn't a M.Sgt, and I couldn't remember his name, but I got part
of it right, anyway.

vince norris

Vince,

To follow up on a message I sent you about an hour ago. I sent an
email to a friend (Jay Apt) who did four shuttle missions. In his
reply he said that the commander of the shuttle sits in the left front
seat and physcially flies the spacecraft on descent and landing. The
"pilot" sits in the right seat and is effectively the copilot.

(Sounds like an "interesting" way of naming the positions to me.)

All the best,
Rick

To follow up on a message I sent you about an hour ago. I sent an
email to a friend (Jay Apt) who did four shuttle missions. In his
reply he said that the commander of the shuttle sits in the left front
seat and physcially flies the spacecraft on descent and landing. The
"pilot" sits in the right seat and is effectively the copilot.

(Sounds like an "interesting" way of naming the positions to me.)

Another example of political correctness, no doubt. Airlines, as you
know, typically call the copilot a "first officer." Derived from the
nautical "first mate," I suppose.

vince norris