Class D Sucks

wrote in news:1103251889.160802.229680
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

snip
I've had more near misses at HGR than any other airport. Is this a
controller problem or is this a lack of equipment problem. One example
was a controller turned an airplane into me rather than telling them to
follow me as #2 for landing. Another example was an IFR biz jet that
was doing a VOR 9 approach while I was cleared for landing (RWY 9) and
about to turn final (I had to firewall the throttle and climb hard to
keep from becoming a hood ornament). In the latter case, HGR tower
didn't know the biz jet was doing the approach (seems someone forgot to
tell them).

If the biz Jet was not talking to tower, he couldn't have been cleared to
land on the runway... If he wasn't talking to approach either, he was not
maintaining two-way radio communication with ATC while in the Class D
Airspace, which is illegal.

So the example, I suspect, is one of someone who didn't follow the rules for
some reason. In that scenario, the competence of the controller or the
equipment is barely relevant. The same situation could have happened (and is
more likely) at a non-towered airport - someone shooting IFR practice
approachs pops up on final and never announces his position on the radio. If
you happen to see him, great. If you don't, at least at a towered airport you
have a guy with a pair of binoculars helping to watch your back.

Jay, as has been pointed out here before, class D controllers do not
control air traffic. They control ground traffic, and sequence air
traffic to the ground.

I think you'd get a pretty stiff argument from the Dubuque controllers on
this issue. They seem to firmly believe that they are "controlling" traffic
inside their airspace -- while it is Mary and me who are arguing otherwise.

While in the air, see and avoid remains fully in force.

See and avoid remains fully in force in ALL classes of airspace, regardless
of radar control.

The events you describe are not unique to class D. There are yoyos at
uncontrolled airports too.

True. But at least we're all expecting the same thing from each other,
rather than having a binocular-equipped controller trying to send us in
different directions. Personally, I'll trust the other guy in the pattern
to do the right thing -- most of the time -- whereas almost every time I fly
into busy non-radar Class D airspace, I witness something stupid and/or
borderline dangerous.

They just wouldn't be =told= to. But given the same number of airplanes,
splitting them into left and right traffic spreads them out in the air.
Were they all in the same pattern, they'd be tighter. I see nothing
=inherently= wrong with split patterns in class D.

What makes them wrong in non-radar Class D airspace is the fact that the
controller is still relying on each of us seeing each other for proper
spacing. Since he's directed half the traffic to fly an opposing pattern,
spotting the correct plane in the sky is problematic. Turning your base leg
in too soon and following the wrong plane is a real possibility.

This is not a job for the FAA. It's a job for pilots. They MUST become
comfortable in class D when operating there, and they MUST become
comfortable at uncontrolled airports when operating there.

That's my point. After ten years and 1400 hours, we're far more comfortable
flying into busy non-controlled airspace than we are flying into so-called
controlled Class D airspace. That is a clear indication that Class D is not
working properly. (Class B and C, in contrast, are almost absurdly simple
and fool-proof. I feel far more comfortable flying into Albuquerque, NM,
Milwaukee, WI, or Birmingham, AL than I do flying into Dubuque.)

As for your (4), changing the terminology will =not= enhance safety.
Calling a tail a leg doesn't help a horse to walk.

Perhaps not -- but at least the terminology would be accurate. Class D is
NOT controlled by any stretch of the imagination.

Agreed. But I'd reccomend as a solution that pilots practice more in
environments with which they are unfamiliar. I fly class D all the time
(I'm in the northeast) and have not found them to be more or less safe
than uncontrolled (or as they like to say now, "nontowered") airports.

Well, I fly into Class D -- usually Janesville, WI (JVL ) or Dubuque (DBQ)
maybe once a month, and have done so for ten years. When the airspace is
dead (as it usually is at a Class D tower), everything works fine --
although certainly no better than in "non-towered" airspace.

It's only when traffic picks up that things can get hairy -- which is truly
absurd when you consider that there wouldn't even BE a reason for a tower
except for those busy times.

But all pilots need to pay attention to the transparant high resolution
datascreen that surrounds the airplane, rather than rely on a headset.

On this we all agree!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article uCnwd.511240$wV.477723@attbi_s54,
Jay Honeck wrote:
Over the years, I have posted several diatribes against Class D (so-called)
"controlled" airspace. In my opinion, having guys standing in a control
tower with binoculars, trying to "control" air traffic is, at best, a
ludicrous throw-back to a simpler time. At worst, it's dangerous.

The right controllers make all the difference. I wonder if part
of your local issue is that there is alot of uncontrolled airspace,
so pilots are not as practiced dealing with controlled airspace.

I fly in the Bay Area, so we have lots of controlled airspace (B,
C, D). I fly out of Palo Alto (PAO, Class D, one 2500ft runway).
I often fly into Livermore (LVK, Class D, two runways, 5200ft and
2600ft).

I've been #12 in the pattern at Palo Alto, and other then a five
mile final, it was smooth sailing. I've been #3 in the pattern at
Livermore and the tower has lost track of which plane was which
and given conflicting instructions. Even though Palo Alto is much
busier, I worry more about flying into Livermore. The guys in SFO
tower have it easy. Norcal Approach does all the hard stuff for
them. Most of the time, the SFO tower guys sound bored. One time,
they asked a departing FedEx DC-10 to make an early turn after
departure, since they wanted to take some pictures. It was just
before sunset, and the light was perfect, unfortunately, I didn't
have my camera with me. My view from 1500ft over SFO would have
made a great photo.

As we arrived in the pattern on a right downwind, with Mary acting as PIC,
we were number three to land behind a 182 coming into the pattern on a left
downwind. This always presents a problem, IMHO, since traffic is hard to
spot when you're flying opposing patterns. There were numerous targets in
the area, all trying to land at once, the tower controller had his hands
full, and he was putting guys into 360 degree turns for spacing.

Palo Alto runs left and right patterns pretty much continually.
If the tower is keeping track of where the traffic it, it should
be easy to spot the traffic on the opposite downwind.

A typical call is "N12345, #4, cleared to land, traffic you are
following is the Cessna on left downwind abeam the tower". That
makes it really easy to spot the traffic.

I think when the pattern is busy, and there is more traffic inbound,
extending the pattern is safer and easier then having planes doing
360s. By the time one plane does a 360, the next plane in the
pattern will have caught up, so then that one has to do a 360, etc.

Having planes fly a longer pattern keeps the pattern flowing better,
IMHO. That way, new planes arriving in the pattern just go to the
end of the line, and the tower doesn't have to try and coordinate
having every other plane doing 360s.

One nice feature at PAO is that when you turn base at five miles
out, you are over two 8000ft runways (Moffett Field NUQ), so even
on a five mile final, you are mostly within gliding range of a
runway.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.panix.com/~jac

The FARs say that class D is controlled airspace. They also say that you
have to obey ATC instructions. What are the tower controllers controlling
there if not air traffic?

They are not controlling air traffic in the sense of taking
responsibility for separation (which they do in IFR for example, and
perhaps in positive control areas - a controller will certainly jump
in and clarify)

That they can keep you out is true, but not relevant to my point (of
it being primarily a pilot's responsibility to see and avoid)

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
news
The FARs say that class D is controlled airspace. They also say that you
have to obey ATC instructions. What are the tower controllers
controlling
there if not air traffic?

They are not controlling air traffic in the sense of taking
responsibility for separation (which they do in IFR for example, and
perhaps in positive control areas - a controller will certainly jump
in and clarify)


I want to put to rest once and for all the idea that class D controllers do
not control air traffic, however. They do. They issue vectors, departure and
arrival instructions for both VFR and IFR traffic, and routing instructions
through their airspace for both VFR and IFR traffic. They also make an
attempt to maintain separation and controllers who fail that responsibility
have been found at least partially at fault in NTSB reports.

I agree with you that separation is primarily the pilot's responsibility,
but this is not a peculiarity of class D. It is true no matter what airspace
you are in.

Jay... Class D is only responsible to separate traffic ON THE RUNWAY.. not
in the air.. their attempts in the air is to try and sequence the traffic so
they have separation ON THE RUNWAY.

Many people forget that.. to include Tower Controllers... as evidenced by
the JetProp and Piper Arrow that met at the runway intersection, one
landing, one taking off, at VGT last year.

BT

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:uCnwd.511240$wV.477723@attbi_s54...
Over the years, I have posted several diatribes against Class D
(so-called) "controlled" airspace. In my opinion, having guys standing
in a control tower with binoculars, trying to "control" air traffic is, at
best, a ludicrous throw-back to a simpler time. At worst, it's dangerous.

Yesterday we once again had the misfortune of flying into Class D, when we
flew to Dubuque (DBQ) for breakfast -- and again witnessed a potentially
dangerous situation.

The University of Dubuque has their flight school there, which means
high-density student traffic in the pattern. There are also four regular
airline flights into/out of DBQ every day. Add to this the occasional
$100 hamburger flight and corporate charters, and you've got an airport
which can, on occasion, rival Chicago for business.

Yesterday was one of those days. After several days of crap, the skies
cleared and the wind, while gusting to 23 knots, was right down Rwy 18.
As a result the pattern was full of students and people like us, enjoying
the day.

As we arrived in the pattern on a right downwind, with Mary acting as PIC,
we were number three to land behind a 182 coming into the pattern on a
left downwind. This always presents a problem, IMHO, since traffic is
hard to spot when you're flying opposing patterns. There were numerous
targets in the area, all trying to land at once, the tower controller had
his hands full, and he was putting guys into 360 degree turns for spacing.

After extending our downwind quite a ways, we finally spotted the 182 we
were to follow. As Mary was turning right base, we heard the controller
tell an older guy in a different 182 "Okay, that's not going to work. Fly
directly toward the tower now and re-enter the right downwind for 18..."

By now we were turning base to final, with Mary fighting the burbles and
updrafts caused by the 20+ knot wind. Out of the corner of my eye I
spotted a Cessna angling toward us from high and to the right, in what
seemed like a very awkward position, given the traffic density in the
pattern. He was in a shallow bank to the right, but, as long as he didn't
descend, we would pass under him as we turned final, so I didn't mention
him to Mary.

As we were sliding down final approach, this guy was still out my right
window, above us and approaching the runway at a 45 degree angle, clearly
out of position. My thoughts were that this *must* be the guy that the
tower had told to "head toward the tower" and that the controllers surely
knew where he was, and that he/they knew what they were doing.

Wrong.

As we were on short final the guy passed above us, and out of sight. I
was now getting pretty uncomfortable, being unable to see him, but I was
confident that we weren't in any danger of collision -- he'd have had to
be a Harrier to land on top of us from that position. Mary was busy
fighting the wind, and I didn't want to interrupt her battle with bitching
about this doofus, but I sure was wondering what the heck the guy was
doing above/behind and now to our left. Besides, the controller surely
knew where he was, right?

Wrong.

Suddenly the controller spotted the transgressor, and started a rapid-fire
interrogation of the guy, asking him what he was doing and where he was
going. The guy responded that he was told to "fly to the tower" -- so he
did! He had missed the second half of the controller's instruction, and
was apparently going to be content doing 360 degree turns over the tower,
or something, awaiting further instructions? More likely he had no idea
what to do when he got over the tower, but couldn't get a word in edgewise
for further instructions...

Needless to say, the controller laid into the guy, at one point stating "I
assume you are a student pilot?" (to which the guy actually answered
"No."). He continued talking to him until we shut down to go into the FBO,
so I don't know if he had to go "visit the tower" or not.

This type of thing has happened to us so many times in Class D airspace,
it's just not funny anymore. There is just no way a guy in a glass tower
can visually track so many targets, or provide spacing guidance with the
parallax caused by trying to judge distance from the ground. In my
opinion, we would have been far safer if Dubuque were UNcontrolled
airspace, because at least everyone would be flying the same pattern -- no
one would be flying opposing RIGHT and LEFT hand converging traffic
patterns simultaneously. Also, everyone would be more on their toes,
without the false security blanket of being in "controlled" airspace.

IMHO, the FAA should either:

1. Provide radar separation in all controlled airports
2. Ban converging patterns at non-radar, controlled airports
3. Make non-radar controlled airport uncontrolled -- period
4. Call non-radar controlled airports what they really a
Semi-Controlled.

We are much more comfortable flying into busy uncontrolled airports than
we are flying into Class D "partially" controlled airspace -- which is
just an absurd situation, when you think about it. It needn't be this
way.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I want to put to rest once and for all the idea that class D controllers
do
not control air traffic, however. They do. They issue vectors, departure
and
arrival instructions for both VFR and IFR traffic, and routing
instructions
through their airspace for both VFR and IFR traffic. They also make an
attempt to maintain separation and controllers who fail that
responsibility
have been found at least partially at fault in NTSB reports.

I agree with you that separation is primarily the pilot's responsibility,
but this is not a peculiarity of class D. It is true no matter what
airspace
you are in.

Last I remember, a CLASS D tower is a VFR tower.. they can only handle 1 IFR
aircraft at a time, and then it is on a relayed clearance from an IFR
facility, they cannot issue or change an IFR clearance without permission
from the IFR controlling facility.

A VFR tower cannot issue a "radar vector", they can provide recommended
headings to fly.

But then again, it's been more than a few years since I was on the other
side of the headset, sitting at the radar scope.

BT

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:Q1vwd.31798$Ae.18996@fed1read05...

Last I remember, a CLASS D tower is a VFR tower..

Not necessarily.



they can only handle 1 IFR aircraft at a time, and then it is on a relayed
clearance from an IFR facility, they cannot issue or change an IFR
clearance without permission from the IFR controlling facility.


That's all true for VFR towers except for the part about handling only one
IFR aircraft at a time.



But then again, it's been more than a few years since I was on the other
side of the headset, sitting at the radar scope.


Apparently.

I doubt you have flown into an environment that was busier than that
segment
of time that Mary and I hit Dubuque.

Jay, don't be so sure. I fly as many hours in a year that you've flown in
ten, based on one of your post to another reader.

As I said previously, I was not there and I am in no way judging your
actions or implying that you did anything wrong.

I was only attempting to suggest possible options for people to consider
when things do not go as we might expect. For all I know you may well have
considered these as well as others.

Next time I get over to that side of the world I'll stop by the Alexis Park
Inn and introduce myself.

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:hhtwd.207711$V41.132095@attbi_s52...
I have flown into Dubuque a few times so I'm familiar with the area. I
have
also more frequently fly in and out of much busier Class D airspaces
than
Dubuque, most all of which have traffic simultaneously on left and right
down winds. I have no problem with this.

..

I've flown into Oshkosh and Sun N Fun numerous times -- arguably the
busiest
airspace in the world -- and not seen (and heard) more people landing than
we did in Dubuque. It was just a fluke thing, with many students, many
simultaneous arrivals, and one doofus pilot all arriving in DBQ at once.

Twenty minutes later, eating breakfast, we saw nary a plane landing.

I'm sure you've already seen all the "see and avoid is your
responsibility,
not the controllers" etc etc... I was not there so I am not condemning
your
actions, but... snip

Not to pick on you, PJ, but I always have to laugh at the folks on the
newsgroups who immediately swing the old "it's your responsibility to see
and avoid" bat whenever I (or anyone else, for that matter) brings up
problems with controlled airspace. NO ONE is arguing that it is not our
responsibility to see and avoid. NO ONE is advocating any other rule, and
NO ONE is abdicating that responsibility. This point of this thread is an
entirely separate issue, and ONLY pertains to my perceptions of the
weaknesses of the FAA's concept of Class D airspace.

For example, did you notify the controller that you 'had the traffic
insight" and if you thought he was in the 'wrong' position in the
pattern,
did you relay your concerns to the controller?

IMHO it would be inappropriate to call out "traffic in sight" to a
controller who (a) had not called out traffic to me specifically, and (b)
was rattling off instructions a mile a minute to half a dozen other
planes.
Trust me, if the airwaves had been silent, Mary would have been asking ATC
what the heck that guy was doing.

We are all responsible for proper safety and communication it every bit
as
important as "see and avoid".

Agreed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

This is so true. At a busy Class D around here, they must have been
training a new controller as I didn't recognize the voice. Traffic was a
disaster, extending down winds for miles and miles, holding, nobody getting
off of the ground and the run-up area stacked. Then ah, that beautiful
friendly voice. Planes started getting in and out with incredible ease and
things were clearing up very quickly. I so badly wanted to say, "Student
Controller, eh?" but figured we hate hearing that pointed our way.


Even w/o the stupidity of wasting airtime, controller skill makes a major
difference (and is probably the paramount variable by far). I was in the
pattern with about six or eight other planes one day, with others coming
in
and leaving. A normal weekend day at CDW. It became a mess, as the
controller lost track of who was where.

A new controller took over, and in minutes the same planes were in a well
oiled dance (to mix metaphors {8^). That's with the same crappy RADAR and
the same mix of traffic.