Class D Sucks

Unless I'm missing some USA specifics (if so, please correct me):
Class D airspace is not an FAA concept but rather an ICAO definition. It
seems to me that you should sit down and re-read the airspace definitions.
Class D: *No* separation provided for VFR flights.

Right -- there is no separation provided in Class D. And no one should
expect the controller to maintain separation.

This is precisely my point, which may be summed up thusly: Class D is
"pretend" controlled airspace. It should be regarded as "Barely
controlled" or "Semi-controlled"...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:fPAwd.586096$D%.508731@attbi_s51...
Right -- there is no separation provided in Class D. And no one should
expect the controller to maintain separation.

This is precisely my point, which may be summed up thusly: Class D is
"pretend" controlled airspace. It should be regarded as "Barely
controlled" or "Semi-controlled"...

How about "Out of Control"?


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

This is precisely my point, which may be summed up thusly: Class D is
"pretend" controlled airspace. It should be regarded as "Barely
controlled" or "Semi-controlled"...

How about "Out of Control"?

Better, yet...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:04:11 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Unless I'm missing some USA specifics (if so, please correct me):
Class D airspace is not an FAA concept but rather an ICAO definition. It
seems to me that you should sit down and re-read the airspace definitions.
Class D: *No* separation provided for VFR flights.

Right -- there is no separation provided in Class D. And no one should
expect the controller to maintain separation.

This is precisely my point, which may be summed up thusly: Class D is
"pretend" controlled airspace. It should be regarded as "Barely
controlled" or "Semi-controlled"...

My problem with Class D space is that it seems to impart an
inappropriate comfort level to many pilots who don't understand what
is (and is not) being provided. I have experienced a number of
problems at Class D airports (one in particular) in my short flying
career. I blame those problems on both controller error and pilot
error. I have been told to position and hold and then listened to the
controller clear someone to land on top of me twice. I have also seen
and heard pilots who were unable to accurate convey their position to
the controllers or were doing something contrary to what they reported
to the controller. My unscientific observation is that neither side
is improving much. I am at my highest risk alert level when flying in
D.
Rich Russell

"Richard Russell" wrote in message
...

My problem with Class D space is that it seems to impart an
inappropriate comfort level to many pilots who don't understand what
is (and is not) being provided. I have experienced a number of
problems at Class D airports (one in particular) in my short flying
career. I blame those problems on both controller error and pilot
error. I have been told to position and hold and then listened to the
controller clear someone to land on top of me twice.


Cleared someone to land on top of you? How do you know that? A landing
clearance can be issued with aircraft on the runway. The landing aircraft
may have been miles away.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:52:38 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Richard Russell" wrote in message
.. .

My problem with Class D space is that it seems to impart an
inappropriate comfort level to many pilots who don't understand what
is (and is not) being provided. I have experienced a number of
problems at Class D airports (one in particular) in my short flying
career. I blame those problems on both controller error and pilot
error. I have been told to position and hold and then listened to the
controller clear someone to land on top of me twice.


Cleared someone to land on top of you? How do you know that? A landing
clearance can be issued with aircraft on the runway. The landing aircraft
may have been miles away.

I had heard previous chatter between the other plane and the
controller. At that point, I thought of that possibility. As it
became increasingly clear that I was "forgotten", I called the tower
and in a firm (but not yet panicked) voice stated that I was in
position and holding on 24. I got an immediate response clearing me
for "immediate take-off, no delay. You may not agree, and that is
fine, but I am quite certain that I was forgotten.
Rich Russell

"Richard Russell" wrote in message
...

I had heard previous chatter between the other plane and the
controller. At that point, I thought of that possibility. As it
became increasingly clear that I was "forgotten", I called the tower
and in a firm (but not yet panicked) voice stated that I was in
position and holding on 24. I got an immediate response clearing me
for "immediate take-off, no delay. You may not agree, and that is
fine, but I am quite certain that I was forgotten.


Just wanted a bit more detail. Controllers do make mistakes, but just
because you hear someone else cleared to land while you're on the runway
doesn't mean that someone's about to land on top of you.

My problem with Class D space is that it seems to impart an
inappropriate comfort level to many pilots who don't understand what
is (and is not) being provided.

This would be because pilots, like all other people, have this idea
that authority and responsibility go together. In other words, if the
controller has the authority to tell you how to fly your pattern, when
to turn, etc - then the responsibility for separation in the air should
also be his. Well, it doesn't work that way. THAT is the primary
weakness of Class D airspace, and it can't be fixed unless you either
make the controller responsible for separation (meaning that unless the
pilot disregarded the controller's instructions, it's controller error,
not pilot error, in the event of a mid-air or near miss) or you give
the pilot the authority to disregard the controller's instructions at
will, not just in the event of an emergency (thus making the airspace
uncontrolled). But while this is an issue in theory, in practice it's
usually not an issue.

In reality, at most Class D's most controllers treat separation as if
it were their responsibility. That means they issue clear and
comprehensible instructions and ask for a readback of the key points,
just as if they were issuing clearances. When that happens, pilots
treat the instructions as if they were clearances - meaning they
question those they don't understand, read back those they do, and
comply - and things work OK - a little better than they would if the
airspace was uncontrolled. Sometimes you get a bad or overloaded
controller, and then things are MUCH worse than they would be if the
airspace was uncontrolled. That's when you get the problems.

I will be the first to admit that I will let a situation that looks
ugly develop a lot further in Class D than I will in Class E or G. I
Class E/G, I know there's nobody looking out for me but me, and if I
don't have a plan nobody does. So when I see things not going to plan
(someone too close for comfort) I take action immediately. Not so in
Class D. Unless the controller has given me reason to doubt his
competence (by doing things like issuing nonsensical or illegal
instructions, chewing out pilots on the frequency rather than calmly
giving them a number to call, and generally acting like he lost SA) I'm
going to assume he has a plan, and I'm going to stick with his plan
until there's just no way. I think most pilots would too. I guess
this is what you call inappropriate comfort level. You are of course
entitled to your opinion, but I don't consider it inappropriate given
the way Class D normally operates. Given the legalities, you have a
point.

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...

This would be because pilots, like all other people, have this idea
that authority and responsibility go together.


Actually, there are quite a few people that don't understand that.

On 17 Dec 2004 08:29:29 -0800, "Michael"
wrote:

My problem with Class D space is that it seems to impart an
inappropriate comfort level to many pilots who don't understand what
is (and is not) being provided.

This would be because pilots, like all other people, have this idea
that authority and responsibility go together. In other words, if the
controller has the authority to tell you how to fly your pattern, when
to turn, etc - then the responsibility for separation in the air should
also be his. Well, it doesn't work that way. THAT is the primary
weakness of Class D airspace, and it can't be fixed unless you either
make the controller responsible for separation (meaning that unless the
pilot disregarded the controller's instructions, it's controller error,
not pilot error, in the event of a mid-air or near miss) or you give
the pilot the authority to disregard the controller's instructions at
will, not just in the event of an emergency (thus making the airspace
uncontrolled). But while this is an issue in theory, in practice it's
usually not an issue.

In reality, at most Class D's most controllers treat separation as if
it were their responsibility. That means they issue clear and
comprehensible instructions and ask for a readback of the key points,
just as if they were issuing clearances. When that happens, pilots
treat the instructions as if they were clearances - meaning they
question those they don't understand, read back those they do, and
comply - and things work OK - a little better than they would if the
airspace was uncontrolled. Sometimes you get a bad or overloaded
controller, and then things are MUCH worse than they would be if the
airspace was uncontrolled. That's when you get the problems.

I will be the first to admit that I will let a situation that looks
ugly develop a lot further in Class D than I will in Class E or G. I
Class E/G, I know there's nobody looking out for me but me, and if I
don't have a plan nobody does. So when I see things not going to plan
(someone too close for comfort) I take action immediately. Not so in
Class D. Unless the controller has given me reason to doubt his
competence (by doing things like issuing nonsensical or illegal
instructions, chewing out pilots on the frequency rather than calmly
giving them a number to call, and generally acting like he lost SA) I'm
going to assume he has a plan, and I'm going to stick with his plan
until there's just no way. I think most pilots would too. I guess
this is what you call inappropriate comfort level. You are of course
entitled to your opinion, but I don't consider it inappropriate given
the way Class D normally operates. Given the legalities, you have a
point.

Michael

Perhaps a poor choice of works, Michael. By inappropriate comfort
level I meant that the pilot may have a false sense of security
because he thinks the controller is responsible for more than he
really is. Too many pilots lose just a little bit of the edge when
they think someone else is watching over their wellbeing. I'm
speaking specifically of VFR pilots, all of whom were taught that ATC
does not provide separation in the air for VFR aircraft in the Delta,
but many have "forgotten".
Rich Russell