Why did this helicopter crash ?

SEAN,
I DIDN'T MEAN HE ROLLED OFF THE POWER, ONLY THAT HE LOWERED COLLECTIVE
TO FULL DOWN TO COUNTER THE LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR. BUT HE MAY HAVE ROLLED
OFF POWER (WHO KNOWS) BUT THEN HE HAD TO ROLL POWER BACK ON BEFORE HE
PULLED IN POWER(COLLECTIVE) AGAIN TO ARREST HIS DESCENT AS HE NEARED
THE ROOFTOPS. THEN HE GOT THE SEVERE YAW AGAIN. IF HE DIDN'T HAVE THE
POWER BACK ON WHEN HE PULLED COLLECTIVE THE BOTTOM WOULD HAVE FELL OUT
OF THE SHIP VERY QUICKLY AND HE WOULD HAVE PUT THAT SHIP THROUGH THOSE
ROOFS INSTEAD OF ON TOP OF THEM.
REGARDS,
MARK (ANDY IS MY MIDDLE NAME)




Sean Trost wrote:

ummn Andy,
Correct me if I'm wronge but if the helicopter is in an auto then the
rotor is disengaged from the powere source, hence no tourqe to induce
the yaw when the collective is pulled.
all the best
Sean

helicopterandy wrote:

"Ove" wrote in message
...

Maybe a hydraulic failure (lost the pressure) ?

Ove
"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...

Hi everybody,

This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
(www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure
that
caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail
rotor
failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.

For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete


write

off.

Iwan Bogels
DAPPA




Sorry for the multiple posts here. But on my first reply I meant to
say after he began the auto he had to pull collective when he neared
the buildings rooftops and he obviously didn't have any tail rotor
thrust to manage that collective pull. Notice how the heli yaws when
he arrests his descent. Read the initial NTSB reports.

HELLO MARK ANDY
IT REALLY IS TRUE THEN THAT FLYING HELICOPTERS MAKES YOU DEAF?
IF YES, WE SYMPATHISE.
IF NO, STOP SHOUTING.

TONY
WHO CAN'T HEAR TO0 WELL OVER ALL OF THESE ROTORS

In article ,
(helicopterandy) wrote:

SEAN,
I DIDN'T MEAN HE ROLLED OFF THE POWER, ONLY THAT HE LOWERED COLLECTIVE
TO FULL DOWN TO COUNTER THE LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR. BUT HE MAY HAVE ROLLED
OFF POWER (WHO KNOWS) BUT THEN HE HAD TO ROLL POWER BACK ON BEFORE HE
PULLED IN POWER(COLLECTIVE) AGAIN TO ARREST HIS DESCENT AS HE NEARED
THE ROOFTOPS. THEN HE GOT THE SEVERE YAW AGAIN. IF HE DIDN'T HAVE THE
POWER BACK ON WHEN HE PULLED COLLECTIVE THE BOTTOM WOULD HAVE FELL OUT
OF THE SHIP VERY QUICKLY AND HE WOULD HAVE PUT THAT SHIP THROUGH THOSE
ROOFS INSTEAD OF ON TOP OF THEM.
REGARDS,
MARK (ANDY IS MY MIDDLE NAME)




Sean Trost wrote:

ummn Andy,
Correct me if I'm wronge but if the helicopter is in an auto then the
rotor is disengaged from the powere source, hence no tourqe to induce
the yaw when the collective is pulled.
all the best
Sean

helicopterandy wrote:

"Ove" wrote in message
...

Maybe a hydraulic failure (lost the pressure) ?

Ove
"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...

Hi everybody,

This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
(www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure
that
caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail
rotor
failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.

For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete


write

off.

Iwan Bogels
DAPPA




Sorry for the multiple posts here. But on my first reply I meant to
say after he began the auto he had to pull collective when he neared
the buildings rooftops and he obviously didn't have any tail rotor
thrust to manage that collective pull. Notice how the heli yaws when
he arrests his descent. Read the initial NTSB reports.






--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

"helicopterandy" wrote in message
om...
SEAN,
I DIDN'T MEAN HE ROLLED OFF THE POWER, ONLY THAT HE LOWERED COLLECTIVE
TO FULL DOWN TO COUNTER THE LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR.

Loweriing collective wouldn't do anything for the tail rotor action. If the
tail rotor DID fail, then the pilot would need to remove the TORQUE whivh
the tail rotor now can't counter, and that's when the rollong power off
would come in handy.


BUT HE MAY HAVE ROLLED
OFF POWER (WHO KNOWS) BUT THEN HE HAD TO ROLL POWER BACK ON BEFORE HE
PULLED IN POWER(COLLECTIVE) AGAIN TO ARREST HIS DESCENT AS HE NEARED
THE ROOFTOPS.

This is a turbine heli. Rolling power on and off "that" quickly isn't going
to happen. I suspect the pilot knows that though.

THEN HE GOT THE SEVERE YAW AGAIN. IF HE DIDN'T HAVE THE
POWER BACK ON WHEN HE PULLED COLLECTIVE THE BOTTOM WOULD HAVE FELL OUT
OF THE SHIP VERY QUICKLY

If he had a tail rotor problem, the LAST thing he'd do is add power.Well
maybe if he liked flying a Waltzer he'd add power, but if he's already cut
power, he woudn't be in a hurry to re-apply it (even if he could)

AND HE WOULD HAVE PUT THAT SHIP THROUGH THOSE
ROOFS INSTEAD OF ON TOP OF THEM.

I think he was simply lucky. I don't think a lot of what followed the
initial departure was down to skill at all, but we all need a bit of luck
now and again.


--
Beav


Please note my E-mail address is "beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com"
(with the obvious changes)

Beavisland now lives at
www.beavisoriginal.co.uk

"Beav" wrote in message ...
"helicopterandy" wrote in message
om...
SEAN,
I DIDN'T MEAN HE ROLLED OFF THE POWER, ONLY THAT HE LOWERED COLLECTIVE
TO FULL DOWN TO COUNTER THE LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR.

Loweriing collective wouldn't do anything for the tail rotor action. If the
tail rotor DID fail, then the pilot would need to remove the TORQUE whivh
the tail rotor now can't counter, and that's when the rollong power off
would come in handy.

Beavis(boy, does your name fit!!),
How long have you been studying helicopters? Five minutes? Saying as
you did above that "lowering the collective wouldn't do anything for
the tail rotor action" speaks volumes of your obvious lack of even the
basics of flying helis.
But then you do a 180 and say that "that's when rolling off the
throttle would come in handy"... Let me assure you of one thing above
all else, YOU NEVER roll off the throttle unless the collective is in
a full down position. EVER.
If I have to explain this to you then you really shouldn't try to get
involved in a discussion you know ZERO about.
Sorry, I guess you cannot learn that with your remote control can you?
Do us all a favor and go buy a Rotorcraft Flying Handbook and READ IT.
Your stupidity is exactly why this site is so poor. Please don't come
to our Yahoo group.

Regards,
Mark




BUT HE MAY HAVE ROLLED
OFF POWER (WHO KNOWS) BUT THEN HE HAD TO ROLL POWER BACK ON BEFORE HE
PULLED IN POWER(COLLECTIVE) AGAIN TO ARREST HIS DESCENT AS HE NEARED
THE ROOFTOPS.

This is a turbine heli. Rolling power on and off "that" quickly isn't going
to happen. I suspect the pilot knows that though.

THEN HE GOT THE SEVERE YAW AGAIN. IF HE DIDN'T HAVE THE
POWER BACK ON WHEN HE PULLED COLLECTIVE THE BOTTOM WOULD HAVE FELL OUT
OF THE SHIP VERY QUICKLY

If he had a tail rotor problem, the LAST thing he'd do is add power.Well
maybe if he liked flying a Waltzer he'd add power, but if he's already cut
power, he woudn't be in a hurry to re-apply it (even if he could)

AND HE WOULD HAVE PUT THAT SHIP THROUGH THOSE
ROOFS INSTEAD OF ON TOP OF THEM.

I think he was simply lucky. I don't think a lot of what followed the
initial departure was down to skill at all, but we all need a bit of luck
now and again.


--
Beav


Please note my E-mail address is "beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com"
(with the obvious changes)

Beavisland now lives at
www.beavisoriginal.co.uk

So why is it that you never reduce throttle without lowering collective?
Loss off main rotor momentum?

helicopterandy wrote:
throttle would come in handy"... Let me assure you of one thing above
all else, YOU NEVER roll off the throttle unless the collective is in
a full down position. EVER.

Hmmm! I have my H-57 (Bell Jetranger) NATOPS manual in front of me.
Emergency procedures, Complete loss of tail rotor thrust, step 1:
"Twist grip - Close"

Never say never. Ever.

Jim Carriere wrote:

Hmmm! I have my H-57 (Bell Jetranger) NATOPS manual in front of me.
Emergency procedures, Complete loss of tail rotor thrust, step 1:
"Twist grip - Close"

Never say never. Ever.

Sounds like handy Randy should take his own advice
and stay out of "OUR" Yahoo group himself.

"Jim Carriere" wrote in message
...
helicopterandy wrote:
throttle would come in handy"... Let me assure you of one thing above
all else, YOU NEVER roll off the throttle unless the collective is in
a full down position. EVER.

Hmmm! I have my H-57 (Bell Jetranger) NATOPS manual in front of me.
Emergency procedures, Complete loss of tail rotor thrust, step 1: "Twist
grip - Close"

Never say never. Ever.


Well, I agree he may have come across a little sharp on the "never" part and
you make a good point on the "never say never" point. I try to live by that
one but sometimes I slip a little. ;-)

Having said that, what does your H-57 manual say you'd better be doing very
shortly "after" closing the twist grip? If it doesn't say something about
lowering the collective, I'm not sure I'd trust much else it says. :-o :-D

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

"helicopterandy" wrote in message
om...
"Beav" wrote in message
...
"helicopterandy" wrote in message
om...
SEAN,
I DIDN'T MEAN HE ROLLED OFF THE POWER, ONLY THAT HE LOWERED COLLECTIVE
TO FULL DOWN TO COUNTER THE LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR.

Loweriing collective wouldn't do anything for the tail rotor action. If
the
tail rotor DID fail, then the pilot would need to remove the TORQUE
whivh
the tail rotor now can't counter, and that's when the rollong power off
would come in handy.

Beavis(boy, does your name fit!!),


Oooh, never heard THAT before.

How long have you been studying helicopters? Five minutes? Saying as
you did above that "lowering the collective wouldn't do anything for
the tail rotor action" speaks volumes of your obvious lack of even the
basics of flying helis.

Oh yeah? Well explain to me how lowering the collective without reducing
power would affect the effect (action) of the tail and improve matters in
the scenrio. If anything, lowering collective would result in a reduced load
on the rotor system and an INCREASE in rotor speed and a corresponding
increase in tail rotor speed, which as you'll recal is no longer
controllable, so the net result would be in increase in yaw rate. Lowering
collective alone would NOT do anything for the uncontrolled yaw which our
intrepid pilot was encountering.

But then you do a 180 and say that "that's when rolling off the
throttle would come in handy"...

And that's exactly when it WILL come in handy. If the tail rotor failure
resulted in the heli still turning against torque, (and it did) there are
only two ways to help control the yaw. One is to use the anti-torque pedlas
(not going to happen if they're not doing their job) and the other is to
reduce power/torque. that usually happens when you remove some power.

Let me assure you of one thing above
all else, YOU NEVER roll off the throttle unless the collective is in
a full down position. EVER.

I imagine that when faced with a looming building, I'd let that particular
rule go by the wayside. I suspect the damage caused by an overspeed might be
"slightly" less than the amount of damage a building makes.

If I have to explain this to you then you really shouldn't try to get
involved in a discussion you know ZERO about.

I'll try hard to remember that.

Sorry, I guess you cannot learn that with your remote control can you?

I don't need to.

Do us all a favor and go buy a Rotorcraft Flying Handbook and READ IT.
Your stupidity is exactly why this site is so poor.

If this site os so poor, what're you doing here?

Please don't come
to our Yahoo group.

I'll come where I want if it's all the same to you.


--
Beav


Please note my E-mail address is "beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com"
(with the obvious changes)

Beavisland now lives at
www.beavisoriginal.co.uk

How long have you been studying helicopters? Five minutes? Saying as
you did above that "lowering the collective wouldn't do anything for
the tail rotor action" speaks volumes of your obvious lack of even the
basics of flying helis.

Oh yeah? Well explain to me how lowering the collective without reducing
power would affect the effect (action) of the tail and improve matters in
the scenrio. If anything, lowering collective would result in a reduced load
on the rotor system and an INCREASE in rotor speed and a corresponding
increase in tail rotor speed, which as you'll recal is no longer
controllable, so the net result would be in increase in yaw rate. Lowering
collective alone would NOT do anything for the uncontrolled yaw which our
intrepid pilot was encountering.

BEAVIS,
YOUR ABOVE POST IS SO WRONG AND MISGUIDED THAT I WON'T BOTHER
RESPONDING TO YOU ANY FURTHER AFTER THIS ONE. BUT DO YOURSELF ONE
FAVOR BEFORE YOU AGAIN MAKE AN IDIOT OUT OF YOURSELF HE
ASK ANY HELICOPTER PILOT WHO FLYS A SHIP THAT HAS A COUNTER-CLOCKWISE
ROTATION MAIN ROTOR WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU LOWER COLLECTIVE? HINT: YOU
GET A NICE YAW TO THE LEFT SINCE YOU ARE TAKING TORQUE/POWER OUT OF
THE SYSTEM AND SO YOU NEED TO APPLY RIGHT PEDAL. THAT RIGHT PEDAL
TAKES THE PITCH/THRUST OUT OF THE TAIL ROTOR.
WHEN YOU LOWER COLLECTIVE YOU ARE REDUCING POWER, MORON. STOP THINKING
THAT POWER IS ONLY REDUCED BY REDUCING ROTOR SPEED. GO STUDY JUST A
BIT.
ONE MORE THING, THE FIRST THING MOST PILOT OPERATING HANDBOOKS STATE
IS THAT IN THE EVENT OF LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR EFFECTIVENESS IN FLIGHT THE
FIRST THING THE PILOT SHOULD DO IS LOWER COLLECTIVE.
YOU ARE TRYING TO ARGUE ALGEBRA WITH A MATH PRO WHEN YOU OBVIOUSLY
DON'T KNOW WHAT 2 PLUS 2 EQUALS.
GO BACK TO YOUR TOYS.
REGARDS,
MARK
PS
HOW MANY PIC HOURS DO YOU HAVE IN HELICOPERS? I'D GUESS ZERO. NO WAIT,
I'D GUARANTEE THAT YOU HAVE ZERO. He he