Oh dear, someone is *still* using this tired old non-story

Chris,

Yet again I will have to agree with you about the PSS realism. I know it's
not all there but it does allow you to experience a large amount of the
procedures. Having sat in on a couple of the training sessions that you
refer to with a RL pilot it certainly reinforces that view.

It also looks like the real thing as far as I can seen from photos of actual
aircraft.

With regard to real pilots taking a long to gain high levels of competence
that is true. However I guess they spend most of their time learning what
to do when things go wrong. You don't really need that part of the training
if you are a terrorist.

From a terrorist perspective they let the real pilot do all the difficult
stuff at the airport and takeoff, then try and take control. Once airborne,
plenty of power and the EADI the right way up and it will most likely stay
in the air.

Even from my simming experience the difficult part of flying a jet seems to
be making things happen against a set of rules (SID/STAR/Route plan)
altitude, speed, direction, glideslope etc. I don't imagine any of that is
important if the aim is to crash into a large object.

One final thought. I have been using this software for about nine months and
to get to my current competence (I generally end up where I want to be
without crashing, having almost followed the rules) it has required a huge
amount of time, and help from more experienced people like BCA03. I am not
sure that joining a simming community would be high on the terrorists list
of things to do, but who knows.

Regards

Geoff





"BCA03" wrote in message
...

"The original Russ." wrote in message
...
ROFL!

Goodness me. I've been lucky enough over the years to have spent time in
the
jump seat on a few commercial flights during takeoffs and landings.

I can honesty say that anyone without proper flight training in a real
aircraft (or *real* simulator) wouldn't know which way to turn in an
actual
commercial airliner cockpit. Let alone know how to fly the friggin thing
with enough accuracy to hit a building!!!

When will these arseholes finally give it up? lol.

Cheers,

Russ.

Oh I dont know Russ. If we are speaking about the kind of terrorist
atrocities carried out on 9/11, all they had to be able to do was some
basic
navigation and control the speed and altitude of the craft. If they knew
how
to use the A/P and programme the FMC it wouldnt have been too hard to get
to
the Towers. And remember, we are speaking about two of the tallest
buildings
around at the time, not some backyard outhouse.

If we are speaking about a Simmer jumping into the LH seat and being able
to
take off, or control the thing in the air, then I agree that most would be
lost. However there are simmers who take it that stage further. The one
time
I got up front for a landing, I wouldnt say I was particularly
knowldgable,
but I did know what all the main bits were and how they worked. Since that
time I have learned a hell of a lot more, to the point that now I could
sit
in the thingypit of a 747 and pretty much know what everything did. It
helps
that I have had a couple of lessons from a RL 747 pilot of course, but
even
he is impressed at just how well the PSS 747 resembles the real thing. I
would also feel comfortable in the 737-400 series, and soon probably the
NG700's, and there are probably lots of simmers who know a lot more than I
do.

To say that FS2xxx can be used to help terrorists with nefarious
intentions
is probably true. To suggest that there are armies of them out there using
it for some long term doomsday scenario would probably be false, at least
I
hope it is ;-)

The VA that I fly for has 3 or 4 RL pilots (Jets not Props), and to a man
they all agree that flying Jets in FS can be harder than the real thing.
Whether its because FS doesnt have the feel that sitting in a moving
object
does, or the lack of peripheral vision, or even the fact that a lot of the
Jets in FS are difficult to trim for straight and level is neither here
nor
there, but if I can follow a 10DME Arc in FS, or make a 7DME tear drop
approach and line up perfect, or even land on two engines in the PSS747
with
a stiff crosswind in FS, then I would have more idea in the real thing
than
most passengers.

I agree that it is a tired old story, but I dont agree that "anyone
without
proper flight training in a real aircraft (or *real* simulator) wouldn't
know which way to turn in an actual commercial airliner cockpit. Let alone
know how to fly the friggin thing with enough accuracy to hit a building"

Now, if you had said "most people" instead of "anyone", we would be in
agreement g

Rgds,

Chris J






Dave Pearson wrote in message
.. .



URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/20...rrorism/index_
np.html
And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this will
be
a
regular feature from now on? sigh

--
Dave Pearson
http://www.davep.org/

Hi and thanks Geoff.

I mentioned a similar story that appeared in the Sun some time ago, and at
least one person here pooh poohed the idea ( of the story appearing in the
Sun, not the idea of terrorists using FS for their own twisted ends ) so I
was mildly pleased that the story had appeared again, albeit in a different
guise. The premise was much the same though. Personally my own comment to
this author would be to accuse him of " statin' the bleedin' obvious " (
with apologies to the Python gang )

Lets take it a step further. I wonder how many Train company owner/managers
had to change their underwear when they heard that Microsoft were bringing
out a Train simulator. Do you suppose they fired off memo's to their drivers
warning them to keep their doors locked at all times just in case. It's a
silly idea of course, but what if it ever happens ? The same questions would
arise again, and hacks the World over will use it to fill a few column
inches when they cant be arsed to go out and do some real journalism.

I think the fact is that 9/11 would have happened whether or not FS had been
written. The only people who know if it played any part are probably dead
now, so the rest of us can never know, and we shouldn't really be worried
too much by it.

Rgds,

Chris J


"GeoffC" wrote in message
...
Chris,

Yet again I will have to agree with you about the PSS realism. I know
it's
not all there but it does allow you to experience a large amount of the
procedures. Having sat in on a couple of the training sessions that you
refer to with a RL pilot it certainly reinforces that view.

It also looks like the real thing as far as I can seen from photos of
actual
aircraft.

With regard to real pilots taking a long to gain high levels of competence
that is true. However I guess they spend most of their time learning what
to do when things go wrong. You don't really need that part of the
training
if you are a terrorist.

From a terrorist perspective they let the real pilot do all the difficult
stuff at the airport and takeoff, then try and take control. Once
airborne,
plenty of power and the EADI the right way up and it will most likely stay
in the air.

Even from my simming experience the difficult part of flying a jet seems
to
be making things happen against a set of rules (SID/STAR/Route plan)
altitude, speed, direction, glideslope etc. I don't imagine any of that
is
important if the aim is to crash into a large object.

One final thought. I have been using this software for about nine months
and
to get to my current competence (I generally end up where I want to be
without crashing, having almost followed the rules) it has required a huge
amount of time, and help from more experienced people like BCA03. I am
not
sure that joining a simming community would be high on the terrorists list
of things to do, but who knows.

Regards

Geoff





"BCA03" wrote in message
...

"The original Russ." wrote in
message
...
ROFL!

Goodness me. I've been lucky enough over the years to have spent time
in
the
jump seat on a few commercial flights during takeoffs and landings.

I can honesty say that anyone without proper flight training in a real
aircraft (or *real* simulator) wouldn't know which way to turn in an
actual
commercial airliner cockpit. Let alone know how to fly the friggin
thing
with enough accuracy to hit a building!!!

When will these arseholes finally give it up? lol.

Cheers,

Russ.

Oh I dont know Russ. If we are speaking about the kind of terrorist
atrocities carried out on 9/11, all they had to be able to do was some
basic
navigation and control the speed and altitude of the craft. If they knew
how
to use the A/P and programme the FMC it wouldnt have been too hard to
get
to
the Towers. And remember, we are speaking about two of the tallest
buildings
around at the time, not some backyard outhouse.

If we are speaking about a Simmer jumping into the LH seat and being
able
to
take off, or control the thing in the air, then I agree that most would
be
lost. However there are simmers who take it that stage further. The one
time
I got up front for a landing, I wouldnt say I was particularly
knowldgable,
but I did know what all the main bits were and how they worked. Since
that
time I have learned a hell of a lot more, to the point that now I could
sit
in the thingypit of a 747 and pretty much know what everything did. It
helps
that I have had a couple of lessons from a RL 747 pilot of course, but
even
he is impressed at just how well the PSS 747 resembles the real thing. I
would also feel comfortable in the 737-400 series, and soon probably the
NG700's, and there are probably lots of simmers who know a lot more than
I
do.

To say that FS2xxx can be used to help terrorists with nefarious
intentions
is probably true. To suggest that there are armies of them out there
using
it for some long term doomsday scenario would probably be false, at
least
I
hope it is ;-)

The VA that I fly for has 3 or 4 RL pilots (Jets not Props), and to a
man
they all agree that flying Jets in FS can be harder than the real thing.
Whether its because FS doesnt have the feel that sitting in a moving
object
does, or the lack of peripheral vision, or even the fact that a lot of
the
Jets in FS are difficult to trim for straight and level is neither here
nor
there, but if I can follow a 10DME Arc in FS, or make a 7DME tear drop
approach and line up perfect, or even land on two engines in the PSS747
with
a stiff crosswind in FS, then I would have more idea in the real thing
than
most passengers.

I agree that it is a tired old story, but I dont agree that "anyone
without
proper flight training in a real aircraft (or *real* simulator) wouldn't
know which way to turn in an actual commercial airliner cockpit. Let
alone
know how to fly the friggin thing with enough accuracy to hit a
building"

Now, if you had said "most people" instead of "anyone", we would be in
agreement g

Rgds,

Chris J






Dave Pearson wrote in message
.. .




URL:http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/20...rrorism/index_
np.html
And just in time for another new release of MSFS. Presumably this
will
be
a
regular feature from now on? sigh

--
Dave Pearson
http://www.davep.org/