500 foot rule and pilot opinion poll

"Kilo Charlie" wrote...
If you are meaning that finishers are coming from all directions then I
agree that it can be a problem. That is why experienced CD's call for
either a steering turnpoint as the last one or for folks to finish from a
single direction. In my experience the latter still can provide some
problems so I prefer the steering turnpoint.

Yes, that's what I mean. The contests I've experienced of late, where the low
pass lovers convince the CD to use a finish gate, call for finishing from a
single direction, but never have a steering turnpoint. My closest near-miss
resulted from a high finish (I like having a cushion, I haven't finished a
contest below 500 feet AGL in 10 years) and a normal pattern, then having
someone make a redline pass less than 100 feet below me just before my base to
final turn. He made the 4 mile call without specifying a direction, and never
saw me. Now, when I'm in the pattern, whether at a contest, or not, I'm
watching the runway, the windsock, etc., not for adrenaline junkies on the deck.

Personally, I don't like steering turns, because they just move the problem out
a few miles, and at many sites can turn a comfortable final glide into a
marginal situation. My attitude is I'm willing to do MATs or put up with a
finish gate, but not both in the same task.

Marc

I would only add that as far as I'm concerned, most pilots will be finishing
at a fairly specific point with a finish gate from the same direction. The
gate is only one kilometer wide vs. a cylinder which allows pilots to finish
legally from any direction (360 degrees) and angle. Especially in a
situation where folks are finishing from all directions with or without a
500' rule, it is dangerous and should not be allowed.

Give me a situation and I can guarantee that I can come up with more than
one way to make it fail wrt safety. This thread has many great examples of
that. I am not trying to belittle your testimony of the finish you
described but there is not ever going to be a totally safe finish method or
sport.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

"Kilo Charlie" wrote...
I would only add that as far as I'm concerned, most pilots will be finishing
at a fairly specific point with a finish gate from the same direction. The
gate is only one kilometer wide vs. a cylinder which allows pilots to finish
legally from any direction (360 degrees) and angle. Especially in a
situation where folks are finishing from all directions with or without a
500' rule, it is dangerous and should not be allowed.

Casey, have you ever actually flown a contest that used a finish cylinder? If
they're coming from all directions, they're spread out over the circumference of
the cylinder, 6+ miles for a 1 mile cylinder, or 12+ miles for a 2 mile
cylinder. The majority of us (you know, the non-adrenalin junkies) make an easy
pull up upon crossing into the cylinder, and are high, slow, and looking by the
time we're going to have conflicts with gliders coming from other directions.
It's significantly more relaxed and safer than trying to hook a gate while
gliders are coming every which way, plus you don't have conflicts with gliders
redlining it at 200 feet while you're trying to land.

Marc

I got to agree with Marc, on this one. We are seeing a lot of MAT tasks and
about 3 hours after the gate opens, the sky is full of gliders coming from all
directions. They hit the 1 mile, 500 foot gate, pull up, slow up, get in the
pattern and start acting like gentlemen again. I flew 4 contests (one a
nationals) that used the 500 foot, 1 mile gate this year, I like it and its
much safer. At Montague the pilots were asked to get the winds form AWOS at 10
miles out and then switch over to gate frequency and LISTEN for finishers in
front of them. I knew who was finishing and where to look. Its a damned safe
way to run things. Any head-on traffic is seperated by 2 miles. I remember a
finish line at Minden nationals a few years back.I finished at 50 feet, pulled
up and banked over for a landing on 30. As I was turning final at 200 feet, I
saw 3 other ships, already on final for 30, so I slid over to 30 taxiway, just
before touch-down, someone slid in, right in front of me, on MY taxiway. When
we finish at 50 feet, we have given up most of our options, any conflict may
become a disaster.
JJ Sinclair

We fly 20 contest days per year here in Arizona Marc and every single one of
them ends with a one mile cylinder. That means that I have finished over 40
times in our ASA series in the past 2 years with the cylinder that you
described so I doubt that you have any more experience than I do with the
system.

The problem is that you may do your "non-adrenaline junky easy pullup" but
most of the pilots that fly contests will NOT be doing that either at one
mile, two miles or fifty miles. So the scenario that you described of
having someone come under you and pull up has exactly equal potential in
your cylinder finish. In fact I would go further and argue that it has MORE
potential since some pilots may continue to push fast toward home (you know
we dangerous, arrogant, hedonistic types) inside the cylinder then pull with
you now wafting around in your extended approach. The rules say nothing
about how you are to enter the pattern or when to pull up. But then silly
me.....I'm sure that's going to be on the table soon too!

This also gets back to the crowd pleasing end as well. Frankly it would
suck to sit out in the heat all day only to have your pilot finish by
entering the pattern. Might as well go down to the local community airport
and watch the Pipers land.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

"Kilo Charlie" wrote...
The problem is that you may do your "non-adrenaline junky easy pullup" but
most of the pilots that fly contests will NOT be doing that either at one
mile, two miles or fifty miles. So the scenario that you described of
having someone come under you and pull up has exactly equal potential in
your cylinder finish. In fact I would go further and argue that it has MORE
potential since some pilots may continue to push fast toward home (you know
we dangerous, arrogant, hedonistic types) inside the cylinder then pull with
you now wafting around in your extended approach. The rules say nothing
about how you are to enter the pattern or when to pull up. But then silly
me.....I'm sure that's going to be on the table soon too!

We had a problem with this at the Tonopah regionals in 2001. The center of the
1 mile cylinder was at the exact center of the airport, which placed the edge of
the cylinder within the airport boundaries. Also many people (myself include)
did not trust their computers, or weren't clear on the fact that the finish
occurred at the edge of the cylinder, so they wouldn't pull up until they
reached the airport center.

By the 2002 regionals up here, everyone had pretty much figured how the finish
cylinders worked, the CDs were using 2 mile cylinders when appropriate, and the
pilots were all pulling up at the edge of the cylinder. Works a lot better.
Maybe you guys are just slow learners down there.

This also gets back to the crowd pleasing end as well. Frankly it would
suck to sit out in the heat all day only to have your pilot finish by
entering the pattern. Might as well go down to the local community airport
and watch the Pipers land.

I don't have a crew very often, but when I do, my wife and daughter are happy to
see me safely on the ground. They could care less about worm burning
finishes...

Marc

I'm with you Casey.

I have continued to do speed passes on all my cylinder finishes when
practical.

I believe this can be accomplished much more safely than a finish line that
is 3000 feet wide, it can also be more dangerous if everyone does it from
many directions.

All the CD has to say is that all speed passes must be down the runway on
one side or the other and the pull up must be at mid field.

Pilots failing to do this can be penalized for unsafe flying, no more rules
are necessary.

This way, everyone, including me knows what to expect and where.

Dale Kramer
K1





"Kilo Charlie" wrote in message news:J8geb.4528$hp5.3072@fed1read04...
We fly 20 contest days per year here in Arizona Marc and every single one of
them ends with a one mile cylinder. That means that I have finished over 40
times in our ASA series in the past 2 years with the cylinder that you
described so I doubt that you have any more experience than I do with the
system.

The problem is that you may do your "non-adrenaline junky easy pullup" but
most of the pilots that fly contests will NOT be doing that either at one
mile, two miles or fifty miles. So the scenario that you described of
having someone come under you and pull up has exactly equal potential in
your cylinder finish. In fact I would go further and argue that it has MORE
potential since some pilots may continue to push fast toward home (you know
we dangerous, arrogant, hedonistic types) inside the cylinder then pull with
you now wafting around in your extended approach. The rules say nothing
about how you are to enter the pattern or when to pull up. But then silly
me.....I'm sure that's going to be on the table soon too!

This also gets back to the crowd pleasing end as well. Frankly it would
suck to sit out in the heat all day only to have your pilot finish by
entering the pattern. Might as well go down to the local community airport
and watch the Pipers land.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

My closest near-miss
resulted from a high finish (I like having a cushion, I haven't finished a
contest below 500 feet AGL in 10 years) and a normal pattern, then having
someone make a redline pass less than 100 feet below me just before my base to
final turn. He made the 4 mile call without specifying a direction, and never
saw me. Now, when I'm in the pattern, whether at a contest, or not, I'm
watching the runway, the windsock, etc., not for adrenaline junkies on the deck.

Marc

You raise a good point; the situation you described (below) can be
very dangerous. But the solution doesn't have to involve steering
turnpoints (which won't help as much if the landing direction doesn't
coincide with the finish direction) or throwing away the old finish
line. The pilot you described was at fault for not specifying a
direction if there was any doubt (the direction can vary even in ASTs
if the final leg involves a deviation for terrain or weather). But if
I hear someone four miles out when I'm in the pattern and I don't see
them right away, I go into frantic "look" mode and call out my
position (e.g., JB turning left base). This is on top of the normal
lookout for other traffic in the pattern.

I will also radio the other pilot(s), as I did last week at New Castle
when three of us were finishing (as it turned out) less than ten
seconds apart from two different directions and three different
altitudes/energies. It took 30 seconds on the way in to establish
beyond a doubt that we had each other in sight and there was
sufficient separation. Otherwise one or more of us would have pulled
up and finished high. As with everything else in soaring involving
other pilots (e.g., gaggles), I don't take anything for granted, even
with ASTs, steering turns, OR finish cylinders. I'm not saying you
did, but it sounds like there was more than one way to avoid the
problem you recounted.

Another solution is the displaced (to one side) finish line used at
Elmira. Rolling finishes are still OK but flying finishes are parallel
to but 1/4 mile away from the runway.

Chip Bearden