why do you soar?

Lennie the Lurker writes
You are confusing what I have to pay for my fixed expenses with what I
have left for "fun money". I was spending about $200 to $300 per
flyable weekend at the glider port, plus $300 per month for the
payments on the plane, and no partners in it. But, lets say, $3600 per
year for payments, $900 for insurance, $35 per month for tiedown, $40
for a 3k tow, and an income of $1500 per month, on which I am now
completely comfortable.

Perhaps our objectives are different. Perhaps geography plays a part.
But I'd say you were paying too much. Certainly far to much for what you
evidently got out of it.

For my part, I'm learning to fly as a member of a local club. I use the
club gliders and the club instructors, all of which come within the
price of my annual membership (£220 pa). Because I took their "Fixed
price to solo" offer (£470 incl annual membership) I don't have to pay
another thing until I either go solo or I need to renew my annual
membership (another £220 next year). I just turn up on a flying day, add
my name to the flying list and help out on the ground as I wait my turn.
Hopefully I'll have gone solo by the time next years subs are due, after
which point it's £6.50 for a winch launch and 26p a minute after the
first 10 minutes (up to a maximum cap, can't recall what). A weekend's
flying once I'm solo shouldn't cost me more than £50 tops. About a third
of what you were paying.

Of course, were I to own my own glider, perhaps the costs would be
higher. Don't know. Haven't bothered to work that out yet. Owning my own
glider, as attractive an ambition as that might be, isn't really
appropriate at the moment.

I suppose the only point I'm trying to make is that your extreme
assessment of the cost of gliding isn't entirely accurate. At least not
accurate enough to qualify as such a sweeping generalisation as the one
you made previously.

I'm not trying to be combative. Could be I'm fortunate in where I live.
But it strikes me that I spend more on running my band, or used to spend
more on fishing, or karate or running my old motorbike than I currently
do (or am likely to in the near future) on gliding. It could cost me
more than I spend on gliding were I to join a local gym. So by
comparison, gliding as a past-time is, if not cheap, can at least be
comparable to any number of other hobbies/sports/activities. Everything
is relevant to budget, but the one thing that really grates me at the
moment is that I didn't realise quite how economic a past-time it could
be. I could have started this years ago, but put off even enquiring
because I was concerned over what I'd assumed would be the high costs.

As for reward, I'm a musician, so I relate deeply to your anecdote
regarding your friend's daughter and "You play the best songs". Music,
especially the performance of it, is a hugely rewarding thing in so many
respects. But I find comparing the rewards of music and the appreciation
of a child (or any type of audience, for that matter) to the rewards to
be found "in a cockpit" to be a bit non-sensical.

Called to make a choice between the two, I'm not sure which way I'd go.
Music, probably, because it's been so much a part of my life and dreams
for so long. But the fact that I'm going gliding tomorrow certainly
isn't going to stop me from turning up and doing the gig tonight. It
won't stop me from helping my son practice his guitar tomorrow night. So
I can have both, and am happier for it. The rewards each give me are
utterly different.

I don't know how much beer is, I've never bought any, but rather think
I can make a pot of coffee for a lot less, and rot my brain a lot less
at the same time.

Sure. But would you have as much fun rotting your brain in coffee as I
do mine in beer?

--
Bill Gribble

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:43:14 +0100, Bill Gribble
wrote:

Lennie the Lurker writes
You are confusing what I have to pay for my fixed expenses with what I
have left for "fun money". I was spending about $200 to $300 per
flyable weekend at the glider port, plus $300 per month for the
payments on the plane, and no partners in it. But, lets say, $3600 per
year for payments, $900 for insurance, $35 per month for tiedown, $40
for a 3k tow, and an income of $1500 per month, on which I am now
completely comfortable.

Perhaps our objectives are different. Perhaps geography plays a part.
But I'd say you were paying too much. Certainly far to much for what you
evidently got out of it.


Bill,
The way things work in the USA are a lot different from the UK. Many
(most?) clubs don't instruct there - you learn at the local FBO, which
is a commercial operation and will charge around $50 per hour for
glider hire, $40 per hour of instructor time and typically $10 - $12
per thousand feet on tow. Winching is rare across the pond. Mind you,
the clubs, where they exist are pretty reasonable (when I visited
Avenal they wanted $20 per tow and $5 for each glider flight, but in
an older, lower performance club fleet (Schweitzer 2-33, Blanik L-13,
Schweitzer 1-26). Club membership seemed more or less in line with the
UK norm.

Finally, most club and FBO fleets are two seat only, so once you're
solo you really have to stump up for a glider to continue. Gliding
there costs a lot more than it does here.

Looked at in his context, Lennie's costs look to be pretty much in
line with the US norm.

For my part, I'm learning to fly as a member of a local club. I use the
club gliders and the club instructors, all of which come within the
price of my annual membership (£220 pa). Because I took their "Fixed
price to solo" offer (£470 incl annual membership) I don't have to pay
another thing until I either go solo or I need to renew my annual
membership (another £220 next year).

My local club is a bit more expensive than yours, but we have a big
airfield, an all-glass fleet and some nice club single seaters to
support. I too did the fixed price to solo. Its good encouragement to
go fly on a less than optimal day. For the last three years I've been
flying club single seaters as part of a similar scheme (buy a block of
reduced cost air time with associated glider booking rights). For a
variety of reasons I'm planning buy my own glider this winter.

Of course, were I to own my own glider, perhaps the costs would be
higher. Don't know. Haven't bothered to work that out yet. Owning my own
glider, as attractive an ambition as that might be, isn't really
appropriate at the moment.

Agreed. You'll know when its time. As you start to go cross country
you'll find your air time per year rises a lot and the cost of using
club gliders follows. I did about 25 hours total in the season it took
me to solo, but flew about double that in my first solo year, 70 hours
last year and 90 this year.

A very rough calculation indicates that, at somewhere between 70-100
hours flown per year, owning your own glider becomes cheaper than
flying club gliders. This assumes that the private glider is older
glass and includes insurance, running costs and interest on capital
but not depreciation. It also assumes no major repairs or damage. By
older glass I mean something between a Standard Cirrus or Libelle and
an ASW-20. I've used current UK glider prices and interest rates and
my club's booking scheme hire costs.

Of course, if the glider is syndicated between two or three pilots
then the cost per pilot drops, but the glider probably doesn't fly
many more hours during the year.

As an aside to the rest of you, what did I miss here?

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

Bill Gribble wrote in message ...


Perhaps our objectives are different. Perhaps geography plays a part.
But I'd say you were paying too much. Certainly far to much for what you
evidently got out of it.

I'm still totalling things up, but what I got out of it was a minimum
$7000 total loss. However, and I wasn't any different from any of the
other students we had, an average day would be three flights, $40 per
tow, an hours rent for the 2-33, another $40, and an hours
instruction, another $40. Once I was in my 1-26, prices got a lot
cheaper, but I don't think I ever took it on more than one flight per
day. Another problem came when, after a layoff of several weeks,
trying to get back on the schedule was only a matter of six more
weeks. Both instructor and the 2-33 were booked solid that far in
advance. Don't know if that's changed, but not being willing to be
financially strapped all the time, it doesn't matter. The nearest
club, the last time I talked to anyone there, no students unless solo
students. Not that that matters either, I don't like clubs, it's a
blooming hobby, something I do for myself, and if the small clique of
anal masters that always seems to take control of it doesn't like it,
I have "kiss me here" embroidered on the seat of my shorts.

But I find comparing the rewards of music and the appreciation
of a child (or any type of audience, for that matter) to the rewards to
be found "in a cockpit" to be a bit non-sensical.

Maybe, but after my first solo, I didn't have a grin on my face.
After the hug from Melissa, I did. After the first solo, it was only
the realization that I had finally done what I had wanted to do for
some forty years. The comment from Melissa meant much more, because
it wasn't just the social "gladhanding" that I got after the solo.
However, had I continued soaring, I could never have purchased the
Yamaha DGX-500, and my left hand is almost entirely shot, can't do
much on the organ anymore.

Sure. But would you have as much fun rotting your brain in coffee as I
do mine in beer?

Probably more, because in the morning I wouldn't be asking myself how
big of a damn fool did I make of myself the night before. But then, I
always figured that my dad drank enough beer that I don't have to.