Safety of winch launch vrs. aero tow?

"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message
...
Gary,
I suspect you are considering winch launching for your club and I would
think
the biggest problem would be in getting club members, "Up to Speed" on
winch
operations.

In way of illustrating my point, allow me to tell a little story about a
local
soaring operation that is no longer in business. This outfit advertised,
get
your "Aero-Tow Only" restriction, removed from your glider licence. Come
to XXX
Soaring and we will check you out in about an hour, or so. This outfit had
a
2-33 with only a nose tow hook (mistake no. 1) They didn't use radios
(mistake
no. 2) The flight examiner weighed a good 300 lb. + your average student
at 200
lb. = 500 lb's in the 2-33 (mistake no. 3)

I was going to take the course, but had to wait for the student in front
of me
to get his check-out. The signal for "Start the launch" was, level the
wings
and flash the lights in the car located near the right wing tip. It went
something like this:

1. Level the wings & flash the lights------------Glider rolled about 10
feet
and stopped. winch operator stalled the winch.

2. Level the wings & flash the lights---------- Cable went, but glider
didn't
move. In the last attempt, wheel had rolled over cable and caused a
reverse
release.

3.Level the wings & flash the lights---------------Glider went about 100
feet
and stopped. Cable had "Kinked" in previous 2 attempts and then broke at a
kink.

-------------30 minute delay while Nico-Press & sleves are found and cable
is
spliced. With 3 attempts and no success, student is having second thoughts
and
opens canopy and starts to climb out. Instructor tells him, everything
will be
fine, this time, Get back in here.

4. Level the wings & flash the lights------------ Glider takes off, to the
wild
applause of all those assembled. Glider only gets 400 feet due to nose tow
hook
location. Glider makes a 90 right and a 180 left, lands and rolls right up
to
the starting point.

Attempts 5, 6 & 7 come off without a hitch and the Flight Examiner is
called
out (300 lbs)

Level the wings & flash the lights-------------- Glider takes off, but
only
gets 300 feet, makes a modified 90/180 and plunks it down hard, way down
the
runway.

I took this opportunity to silently disappear and my licence still reads,
Aero-Tow Only.
JJ Sinclair

What JJ experienced is, unfortunately, an all too common experience in the
USA.

A bunch of guys, (it's usually guys) get together and decide to winch launch
gliders. ("How hard can it be?" "We can teach ourselves...") They start
with poor equipment, a bad site, no experience or training and proceed to
scare themselves badly...or worse.

They then decide that the problem is winch launch (It doesn't work, low
releases, lots of hassles, etc..) and then go back to air tow.

I've flown tugs and driven winches - I'll take winches for fun. I've flown
lots of air tow and been scared on plenty of occasions. I've flown lots of
winch launches and rarely had one go wrong. If anybody wants a winch
experienced CFI-G for a week of winch training, email me. I might be
available.

BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch
experience jumping in here?

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:

BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch
experience jumping in here?

I can't speak for others, but I read this thread, shaked my head and
simply didn't feel like commenting. Seldom I have seen a discussion
which showed so clearly plain ignorance.

In a word: If done correctly, winch launching is safe, cheap and fun. It
is certainly much (much!) cheaper than aero-tow. It is certainly much
more fun. And it's easier, too.

The only dangerous moment for the pilot is at the very beginning of the
pull. It is very very very important not to pull too early or too
briskly. Stalling the glider at this altitude is lethal. Once
established in the climb, make sure you have always enough speed to pull
over if the rope breaks. Everything else is very easy and very safe.
There *are* rope breaks, but they are very much a non-event. Either you
have enough room to land straight, or you have enough altitude to do a
180 or a short circuit.

Winch launching has much more safety issues for the ground crew and
spectators than for the pilot. Be sure to have an experienced person
show you safe procedures.

Of course, an experienced winch driver helps a lot, too. At our club, a
new winch driver must do 50 launches under supervision befor he's
allowed to winch alone. We never had a winch accident in 40 years.

Stefan

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:

BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of
winch
experience jumping in here?

I can't speak for others, but I read this thread, shaked my head and
simply didn't feel like commenting. Seldom I have seen a discussion
which showed so clearly plain ignorance.

In a word: If done correctly, winch launching is safe, cheap and fun. It
is certainly much (much!) cheaper than aero-tow. It is certainly much
more fun. And it's easier, too.

The only dangerous moment for the pilot is at the very beginning of the
pull. It is very very very important not to pull too early or too
briskly. Stalling the glider at this altitude is lethal. Once
established in the climb, make sure you have always enough speed to pull
over if the rope breaks. Everything else is very easy and very safe.
There *are* rope breaks, but they are very much a non-event. Either you
have enough room to land straight, or you have enough altitude to do a
180 or a short circuit.

Winch launching has much more safety issues for the ground crew and
spectators than for the pilot. Be sure to have an experienced person
show you safe procedures.

Of course, an experienced winch driver helps a lot, too. At our club, a
new winch driver must do 50 launches under supervision befor he's
allowed to winch alone. We never had a winch accident in 40 years.

Stefan

Thanks, Stefan, we need to hear more of this sort of thing.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:

BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of
winch

experience jumping in here?


I can't speak for others, but I read this thread, shaked my head and
simply didn't feel like commenting. Seldom I have seen a discussion
which showed so clearly plain ignorance.

In a word: If done correctly, winch launching is safe, cheap and fun. It
is certainly much (much!) cheaper than aero-tow. It is certainly much
more fun. And it's easier, too.

The only dangerous moment for the pilot is at the very beginning of the
pull. It is very very very important not to pull too early or too
briskly. Stalling the glider at this altitude is lethal. Once
established in the climb, make sure you have always enough speed to push
over if the rope breaks. Everything else is very easy and very safe.
There *are* rope breaks, but they are very much a non-event. Either you
have enough room to land straight, or you have enough altitude to do a
180 or a short circuit.

Winch launching has much more safety issues for the ground crew and
spectators than for the pilot. Be sure to have an experienced person
show you safe procedures.

Of course, an experienced winch driver helps a lot, too. At our club, a
new winch driver must do 50 launches under supervision befor he's
allowed to winch alone. We never had a winch accident in 40 years.

Stefan

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:

BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of
winch

experience jumping in here?


SNIP
Winch launching has much more safety issues for the ground crew and
spectators than for the pilot. Be sure to have an experienced person
show you safe procedures.

Of course, an experienced winch driver helps a lot, too. At our club, a
new winch driver must do 50 launches under supervision befor he's
allowed to winch alone. We never had a winch accident in 40 years.

Stefan

We do 40, 20 as observer/helper, and 20 supervised, but our winch is a
simple
single-drummed affair.

Frank Whiteley

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:

BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of
winch

experience jumping in here?


SNIP
Winch launching has much more safety issues for the ground crew and
spectators than for the pilot. Be sure to have an experienced person
show you safe procedures.

Of course, an experienced winch driver helps a lot, too. At our club, a
new winch driver must do 50 launches under supervision befor he's
allowed to winch alone. We never had a winch accident in 40 years.

Stefan

We do 40, 20 as observer/helper, and 20 supervised, but our winch is a
simple
single-drummed affair.

Frank Whiteley

Let me amend this to say a minimum of 40. To that end, you may have driven
a winch hundreds or thousands of times and still not have seen it all, and
hopefully, never will.

Frank Whiteley

In Germany, the requirement is 100 supervised launches on at least 10
different days.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"F.L. Whiteley" a écrit dans le message de
...
Let me amend this to say a minimum of 40. To that end, you may have
driven
a winch hundreds or thousands of times and still not have seen it all, and
hopefully, never will.

Frank Whiteley

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
ink.net...
| A bunch of guys, (it's usually guys) get together and
decide to winch launch
| gliders. ("How hard can it be?" "We can teach
ourselves...") They start
| with poor equipment, a bad site, no experience or training
and proceed to
| scare themselves badly...or worse.
|
| They then decide that the problem is winch launch (It
doesn't work, low
| releases, lots of hassles, etc..) and then go back to air
tow.
|
| I've flown tugs and driven winches - I'll take winches for
fun. I've flown
| lots of air tow and been scared on plenty of occasions.
I've flown lots of
| winch launches and rarely had one go wrong. If anybody
wants a winch
| experienced CFI-G for a week of winch training, email me.
I might be
| available.
|
| BTW, How about some of our British and European friends
with lots of winch
| experience jumping in here?

Not from UK or Europe, but Australia:
There are a number of clubs, ours included that usually
launch by winch.
In Oz, all gliding is controlled by The Gliding Federation
of Australia, under a delegation from CASA (the Aussie FAA)
GFA has a regulation setting the minimum length of field for
winch launching to 1200 metres (approx 4000 ft). This is to
avoid the possibility of a "non-manoeuvring" area, where, if
the cable breaks, there is insufficient length to land
straight ahead, and not high enough to do a modified circuit
and land normally.
There are standard procedures which are taught, involving
signals between the pilot and the winch driver, and
procedure for dealing with cable breaks. These are taught
and practiced during the winch launch training. There is an
agreed minimum number of launches (12) before sign-off for
anyone converting from aerotow.
Provided you have a good winch, with sufficient power, and
an experienced driver, it is a very safe and efficient way
to get into the air.
It is also quiet, which is a boon for those fields close to
built-up areas.
Cheers, John G.

Bill Daniels wrote:

BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch
experience jumping in here?

I have done some 1500 winch launches and about 50 aerotows. Beside some
cable breaks, I can't remember any uncomfortable situation during a winch
launch. I can't tell this of the aerotows.

In Germany, winch drivers have to do at least 100 launches on 10 different
days under supervision of an experienced driver. The 10 days rule is to
ensure different weather/wind situations during the training. We expect
every pilot to get his winch driver licence. The driver will get a
replacement after some hours and normally can choose his favorite glider
after his shift.

As for unexperienced winch drivers: anything that can happen (cable breaks,
engine problems, other launch interruptions) can be and must be handled by
the pilot.

On our 1200 m strip, we normally get 350-600 m after release. On good
thermal days, this is pretty enough to get away. With students we can do
easily lots of patterns of 6-10 minutes.
Eggert

Mr. Ehmke --

Your ability to get 600 m releases with a winch on a 1200 m strip seems
extraordinary. Is your cable length just 1200 m also or is it greater
than your strip length?

Thanks for your input.

BJ

Eggert Ehmke wrote:

Bill Daniels wrote:

BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch
experience jumping in here?

I have done some 1500 winch launches and about 50 aerotows. Beside some
cable breaks, I can't remember any uncomfortable situation during a winch
launch. I can't tell this of the aerotows.

In Germany, winch drivers have to do at least 100 launches on 10 different
days under supervision of an experienced driver. The 10 days rule is to
ensure different weather/wind situations during the training. We expect
every pilot to get his winch driver licence. The driver will get a
replacement after some hours and normally can choose his favorite glider
after his shift.

As for unexperienced winch drivers: anything that can happen (cable breaks,
engine problems, other launch interruptions) can be and must be handled by
the pilot.

On our 1200 m strip, we normally get 350-600 m after release. On good
thermal days, this is pretty enough to get away. With students we can do
easily lots of patterns of 6-10 minutes.
Eggert