Safety of winch launch vrs. aero tow?

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 05:41:06 +0000 (UTC), "tango4"
wrote:


"Mike Borgelt" wrote in message
.. .

If you want gliding to be popular aerotow involves less running around
on the ground per flight hour.


A cable retrieve winch such as the one in use at the Long Mynd in the UK
makes a winch operation even slicker than aerotowing!

Ian



So how many winch operations involve two people?
I've had tows where the only people present were the tow pilot and the
glider pilot. Least I got with auto tow was three. Both were no radio
ops.

And for you guys who operate on nice green grass airfields which allow
things like cable retrieve winches - it don't happen in Oz.

And lastly we did have a winch driver killed during a winch launch a
few years ago. The wire (basically high tensile single strand fencing
wire) shattered as it was being reeled in after the glider released
and one of the pieces of shrapnel hit the winch driver in the upper
torso and he died shortly thereafter before anyone got to the winch.
The lexan shield had been bought but not installed.

My favourite launch method involves a motor in the glider.

Mike Borgelt

"Mike Borgelt" wrote in message
.. .

And for you guys who operate on nice green grass airfields which allow
things like cable retrieve winches - it don't happen in Oz.

***********
You have obviously never been to the Long Mynd - I have heard it described
rather unkindly) as " a barely levelled granite hilltop".

The retrieve system ( a small winch pulls the cable back to the launch
point) originated out of necessity many many years ago when the airfield was
much smaller and the winch had to be positioned outside the boundary. The
cable crossed a deep, (approx 15/20 ft) gully at the airfield boundary and
then on up along a slope covered in bracken and heather, any other method of
retrieving the cable was impracticable. However the system was so efficient
in terms of launch rates that it has continued to this day even though the
airfield is now big enough to site the winch within the boundary. There is
of course a small penalty in terms of launch height but this is of little
significance.

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:59:17 -0000, "Silent Flyer" ]
wrote:


"Mike Borgelt" wrote in message
.. .

And for you guys who operate on nice green grass airfields which allow
things like cable retrieve winches - it don't happen in Oz.

***********
You have obviously never been to the Long Mynd - I have heard it described
rather unkindly) as " a barely levelled granite hilltop".

Actually I have in 1988.
The surface looked pretty good compared to most Oz airfields. There
are one or two which I've jokingly said you would fail an outlanding
check if you picked the airfield.

I'm sure there are good statistics available for the safety of winch
vs aerotow but nobody has come up with them.

Winching is cheaper for training but has anyone noticed that gliding
is shrinking worldwide? Perhaps the old way of doing business is no
longer successful?

I think we need to realise that gliding is a sport for *pilots*.

First turn a newcomer into a pilot.

There is a wonderful array of small light aircraft and /or
motorgliders available nowadays at very reasonable prices. In Oz a
Pipistrel Sinus costs about the same as a new ASK21 and for the
purposes the K21 would be mostly used for (primary training) the Sinus
might be not quite as good a sailplane but will more than adequately
do the job and lets you teach cross country navigation, outlanding
field selection etc as well as being a not bad two seat bugsmasher.
Combine training in one of these with motivational rides with cross
country pilots in high performance two seat gliders(minimum - Janus,
Duo etc preferably with self launch or turbo to prevent outlandings)
and I think you might have a 21st Century soaring movement that might
have a fighting chance of actually retaining the people that come to
it.

Mike Borgelt

A winch driver won't get killed if the winch is equipped properly. And a
cable breaking near the winch under full power is something very, very
dangerous, so sitting on a winch without shielding is asking to be killed.

The min team for winch launches is the pilot, the winch driver and the wing
runner (the winch driver can retrieve the cables on his own if the winch has
properly working brakes on the drums). If pilot and winch driver are
suffiencently experienced, a chair may well replace the wingrunner (although
stating that in public may not be politically correct :-)

During winch launch, any accident is related to pilot errors so you can
basically keep the accident rate fairly low.

On aerotows you may have situations were a cable break *will* induce an
accident, and the pilot may just be able to influence the damage.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Mike Borgelt" a écrit dans le message de
...
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 05:41:06 +0000 (UTC), "tango4"
wrote:


"Mike Borgelt" wrote in message
.. .

If you want gliding to be popular aerotow involves less running around
on the ground per flight hour.


A cable retrieve winch such as the one in use at the Long Mynd in the UK
makes a winch operation even slicker than aerotowing!

Ian



So how many winch operations involve two people?
I've had tows where the only people present were the tow pilot and the
glider pilot. Least I got with auto tow was three. Both were no radio
ops.

And for you guys who operate on nice green grass airfields which allow
things like cable retrieve winches - it don't happen in Oz.

And lastly we did have a winch driver killed during a winch launch a
few years ago. The wire (basically high tensile single strand fencing
wire) shattered as it was being reeled in after the glider released
and one of the pieces of shrapnel hit the winch driver in the upper
torso and he died shortly thereafter before anyone got to the winch.
The lexan shield had been bought but not installed.

My favourite launch method involves a motor in the glider.

Mike Borgelt

"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
A winch driver won't get killed if the winch is equipped properly. And a
cable breaking near the winch under full power is something very, very
dangerous, so sitting on a winch without shielding is asking to be killed.

The min team for winch launches is the pilot, the winch driver and the
wing
runner (the winch driver can retrieve the cables on his own if the winch
has
properly working brakes on the drums). If pilot and winch driver are
suffiencently experienced, a chair may well replace the wingrunner
(although
stating that in public may not be politically correct :-)

During winch launch, any accident is related to pilot errors so you can
basically keep the accident rate fairly low.

On aerotows you may have situations were a cable break *will* induce an
accident, and the pilot may just be able to influence the damage.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


I was recently shown (very discretely) a wing runner replacement by a pilot
who uses ground launch.

I was comprised of a long tripod made of PVC pipe, topped with an inverted,
felt lined, ski-type runner, on which the wing tip slid. It would hold the
wings level for the first 2 meters of the takeoff roll. It could be
dismantled and stored in the glider trailer.

The successful use of this device depended on excellent radio communication
between the glider pilot and the tow car/winch driver plus a very good wheel
brake on the glider so that the pilot could prevent being pulled off the
tripod as the slack was slowly pulled out. I was told that it worked very
well.

Way back in the 1960's a friend and I would trailer our gliders out to
remote dry lakes in the Mojave Desert. We would take turns auto-towing the
other into the air. The obvious problem is that the pilot driving the tow
car was left on the ground with his glider if the other found lift.

On one occasion, I caught a thermal and soared away leaving my friend on the
ground. I felt bad about leaving him on the ground but thought - but hey, I
have lift. Shortly afterward, my friend joined my thermal in his glider.
He had talked a curious passer by into driving the tow car.

We just started the launch with the wingtip on the ground. Ground launch
crews can be very small.

Bill Daniels