Safety of winch launch vrs. aero tow?

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
.. .
In article , mowry86
@hotmail.com says...
Beware of the raw statistics.

How about this one:

100% of 2003 US glider fatalities occur after aerotow.

Sounds like a good tag line for a winch manufacturer advertisement

Unfortunately, not true: some have occurred after self-launch, and I
know there have been some ground launch fatalities (how recently, I
can't remember)
--
!Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply
directly

Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)

The following occured in the launch phase

Two fatals I'm aware of. A homebuilt failed structurally in a winch launch
in Colorado some years ago and apparently another homebuilt crashed in North
Carolina in the past couple of weeks on auto tow. Not clear whether the NC
accident pilot was even trained in ground launch. Perhaps someone in that
neck of the woods can offer more information.

A Russia was damaged in Wyoming a few years back on auto tow at a private
ranch strip, however, the grapevine reported the pilot had no specific
ground launch training and cart-wheeled the glider. IIRC, it was properly
repaired and sold.

A sometimes RAS poster was seriously injured in a winch launch accident
involving a Phoebus C in Georgia a few years ago. (stalled all-flying tail
to excessive pitch-up to wing stall, wing-drop, and rolled inverted to
impact)

Any others? Certainly there have been a few at Torrey Pines over the
decades, though environmental factors have been a big player there.

Frank Whiteley

Any others? Certainly there have been a few at Torrey Pines over the
decades, though environmental factors have been a big player there.

Frank Whiteley

Its been a long time now, but a group was auto-towing a Cherokee at Air
Sailing, NV. The initial flights were made with a pulley attached to a stake in
the ground and car driver heading straight for the glider. After several
flights they decided to put the pilley on the car and NOBODY knew that would
DOUBLE the glider speed. The driver "Stood on it " hard and finally obtained
his briefed 50 mph. The glider was now doing 100 and pilot was unable to
release due to excessive tow line pressure. The wings came off and pilot was
killed.

About 20 years back, a group was auto-towing a Monarch at Kingdon, Ca. That
went so well, they decided to hook it up to a tow plane. The ship did several
PIO's as the pilot tried in vain, to release. He survived, but doesen't
remember anything after the 3rd grade.

My pilot licence still reads, "Aero-Tow- Only"
JJ Sinclair

"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message
...

Any others? Certainly there have been a few at Torrey Pines over the
decades, though environmental factors have been a big player there.

Frank Whiteley

Its been a long time now, but a group was auto-towing a Cherokee at Air
Sailing, NV. The initial flights were made with a pulley attached to a
stake in
the ground and car driver heading straight for the glider. After several
flights they decided to put the pilley on the car and NOBODY knew that
would
DOUBLE the glider speed. The driver "Stood on it " hard and finally
obtained
his briefed 50 mph. The glider was now doing 100 and pilot was unable to
release due to excessive tow line pressure. The wings came off and pilot
was
killed.

About 20 years back, a group was auto-towing a Monarch at Kingdon, Ca.
That
went so well, they decided to hook it up to a tow plane. The ship did
several
PIO's as the pilot tried in vain, to release. He survived, but doesen't
remember anything after the 3rd grade.

My pilot licence still reads, "Aero-Tow- Only"
JJ Sinclair

JJ, you've had some bad experiences and I'm sorry for that. But you have to
realize that there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of winch
launches all around the world that go off without a hitch simply because the
people involved know what they are doing.

If we take the trouble to learn from them and not try to re-invent the
wheel, ground launch becomes very safe and enjoyable. (The first thing to
learn is not to use a Schweitzer-type tow release for anything at all,
period.)

Bill Daniels

JJ, you've had some bad experiences and I'm sorry for that. But you have to
realize that there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of winch
launches all around the world that go off without a hitch simply because the
people involved know what they are doing.

The subject under discussion is a club that is thinking about trying a new
launch system, winch launching and now pay-out winch. My point in posting on
this subject is to show what can happen when unskilled club members try a new
system.
JJ Sinclair

"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message
...


JJ, you've had some bad experiences and I'm sorry for that. But you have
to
realize that there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of winch
launches all around the world that go off without a hitch simply because
the
people involved know what they are doing.

The subject under discussion is a club that is thinking about trying a new
launch system, winch launching and now pay-out winch. My point in posting
on
this subject is to show what can happen when unskilled club members try a
new
system.
JJ Sinclair

OK, JJ, If they are unskilled and insist on REMAINING unskilled, I'll give
you the point. Everybody starts out unskilled, however - I don't hold that
against them.

I don't think you are dissing ground launch, you're just warning that any
group needs to realize that there is a steep learning curve ahead of them.
I'll agree with that.

They've learned to fly gliders however, so they can't be dumb. I think they
can learn to operate a winch safely and enjoyably IF they take the trouble
to learn the art and science of it. There are lots of books to read and
this medium, the internet, connects us with the world where there is a
wealth of knowledge about ground launch.

If someone wanted to do the world of ground launch a great favor, they would
start a web site where the collective wisdom of the world could be displayed
so that anyone wishing to undertake winch launch could go there and get an
education.

Any volunteers?

Bill Daniels

I say learn and enjoy.

Bill Daniels

If someone wanted to do the world of ground launch a great favor, they would
start a web site where the collective wisdom of the world could be displayed
so that anyone wishing to undertake winch launch could go there and get an
education.

Ok it may not be the collective wisdom of the world. But there is
quite a bit of information on winch launching at:

http://www.northwestsoaring.com/sitemap.shtml

Let me know if I am missing anything really important about Winch
Launching here.

Brian Case
CFIIG/ASEL

"Brian Case" wrote in message
om...
If someone wanted to do the world of ground launch a great favor, they
would
start a web site where the collective wisdom of the world could be
displayed
so that anyone wishing to undertake winch launch could go there and get
an
education.

Ok it may not be the collective wisdom of the world. But there is
quite a bit of information on winch launching at:

http://www.northwestsoaring.com/sitemap.shtml

Let me know if I am missing anything really important about Winch
Launching here.

Brian Case
CFIIG/ASEL

Good site - congratulations.

About your 2003 procedures - you must have had a bad experience with gusty
wind conditions. This is why I have been advocating airspeed telemetry.

Bill Daniels

OK, the threads on this topic are branching out pretty good, so again I feel the
need to post that most if not all of the collected wisdom in the world concerning
ground launch in all of its phases is already available in one place.

This place is between the covers of one slim volume by the same name and was
authored by the great Derek Piggott. I just Googled "ground launch piggott" and
up popped maybe a half dozen people who wanted to sell me one. The first was NSM,
our National Soaring Museum:

http://www.soaringmuseum.org/estore/...353463656.html

Get one today! (Book, that is)

And after you read it, don't go out and "do this at home" as they say. Get
somebody that knows how to show you the ropes (har, har) and then the book will
make much more sense.

Disclaimer--- I own stock in both Piggott Enterprises and NSM.

Just kidding

BJ

Brian Case wrote:

If someone wanted to do the world of ground launch a great favor, they would
start a web site where the collective wisdom of the world could be displayed
so that anyone wishing to undertake winch launch could go there and get an
education.

Ok it may not be the collective wisdom of the world. But there is
quite a bit of information on winch launching at:

http://www.northwestsoaring.com/sitemap.shtml

Let me know if I am missing anything really important about Winch
Launching here.

Brian Case
CFIIG/ASEL

Earlier, JJ Sinclair wrote:

Its been a long time now, but a group was
auto-towing a Cherokee at Air Sailing, NV...

I'm not sure, but I believe that was actually a Don Mitchell design
called the Nimbus III-B (no relation to the later Schempp-Hirth
product of similar name). That was in 1973:

http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=85473&key=0

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com