News Flash: You don't need elevator control !

And, in related news:
http://www.news.com.au/common/printp...628206,00.html
See ya, Dave

"nowhere" wrote in message
m...
Yes, according to Peter Garrison's "Aftermath" column in the November
issue of "Flying" you don't need to connect your elevator control! I
quote: "the NTSB report does not comment on the fact that a
disconnected elevator does not make an ASW-20, or for that matter any
other airplane, unflyable. The situation is aerodynamically no
different from what occurs when the pilot removes his hand from the
stick."

I think I'll start leaving the elevators off my ASW-15 now. Imagine
how the reduction in drag will improve the performance! Not having to
worry about pitch control will certainly cut down on the cockpit
workload as well. The benefits are endless!

File this one under airfield legend. Flapped gliders with horizontal
stabs (as opposed to full flying) can be manuevered without full
elevator authority, but you're as likely to die as not. As for the
CFI, I suspect his elevator was semi-attached (cup on ball, but not
locked). It is likely that the elevator came disconnected during the
rollout on landing, thus the difficulty with aerotow. (Of course, you
might be able to sell this one, if the cg was up around the rudder
pedals.)


Robert John wrote in message ...
A chief flying instructor of my acquaintance flew about
300k without realising his elevator was disconnected
(ASW20). The initial launch was a winch which was
fine (back-pressure pushing the elevator up). He landed
out at another airfield and took an aerotow retrieve.
He had to release quickly and land ahead using trim
when the glider climbed uncontrollably. The aerotow
needed forward pressure on the stick (downward 'pull'
on the elevator when on tow). At no time during the
previous flight, including on winch launch, was this
needed, though he did remark that the elevator has
felt a little 'odd' at times!

Rob

At 16:12 30 October 2003, Mark Grubb wrote:
..
'nowhere' wrote in message
om...
Yes, according to Peter Garrison's 'Aftermath' column
in the November 7issue of 'Flying' you don't need
to connect your elevator
control! I quote: 'the NTSB report does not comment
on the fact
that a disconnected elevator does not make an ASW-20,
or
for that matter any other airplane, unflyable.

This is correct. I personally know of Several -20's
and even a PIK-20
(no spoiers) that were flown and successfully landed
without elevator
control. I tested this mode in a -20C by 'locking'
the pitch at the
stick with tape (that would break should I need it
to). It was not
pretty, but I towed to 2K ft, released and landed with
flaps and
spoilers only. Not a huge deal.

Keep your wits about you, practice, and you needn't
die because of a
disabled/disconnected control!

No. It happened as Rob described it.

He rigged normally, and then put in water ballast including tail ballast.
To put in the tail ballast he had to disconnect the elevator, and he forgot
to re-connect it.

Presumably he got away with it because the C. of G. was very close to the
aft limit, and he changed speed by the correct use of flaps. During the
winch launch the wire would tend to pull the nose down, so he would be
applying up elevator.

The trim would have been no help, because it is a spring acting on the
elevator control circuit and is only connected to the elevator if the
control is connected.

I know the pilot. No-one knows better than he that he was very, very
lucky.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).


Remove "ic" to reply.
"Chris OCallaghan" wrote in message
om...

File this one under airfield legend. Flapped gliders with horizontal
stabs (as opposed to full flying) can be manoeuvred without full
elevator authority, but you're as likely to die as not. As for the
CFI, I suspect his elevator was semi-attached (cup on ball, but not
locked). It is likely that the elevator came disconnected during the
rollout on landing, thus the difficulty with aerotow. (Of course, you
might be able to sell this one, if the cg was up around the rudder
pedals.)


Robert John wrote in
message ...

A chief flying instructor of my acquaintance flew about
300k without realising his elevator was disconnected
(ASW20). The initial launch was a winch which was
fine (back-pressure pushing the elevator up). He landed
out at another airfield and took an aerotow retrieve.
He had to release quickly and land ahead using trim
when the glider climbed uncontrollably. The aerotow
needed forward pressure on the stick (downward 'pull'
on the elevator when on tow). At no time during the
previous flight, including on winch launch, was this
needed, though he did remark that the elevator has
felt a little 'odd' at times!

Rob

I stand corrected, but still find the story a little dubious. Flying a
three hundred kilometer flight without elevator (and not realizing
it), especially with the cg well aft (less pitch stability), seems
unlikely. Ah well, I suppose this qualifies as one of those "stranger
things have happened." Lucky, indeed.

Can I rub shoulders with him before the nationals next year? I can use
that kind of luck!

Cheers,

OC

"W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)." wrote in message ...
No. It happened as Rob described it.

He rigged normally, and then put in water ballast including tail ballast.
To put in the tail ballast he had to disconnect the elevator, and he forgot
to re-connect it.

Presumably he got away with it because the C. of G. was very close to the
aft limit, and he changed speed by the correct use of flaps. During the
winch launch the wire would tend to pull the nose down, so he would be
applying up elevator.

The trim would have been no help, because it is a spring acting on the
elevator control circuit and is only connected to the elevator if the
control is connected.

I know the pilot. No-one knows better than he that he was very, very
lucky.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).


Remove "ic" to reply.
"Chris OCallaghan" wrote in message
om...

File this one under airfield legend. Flapped gliders with horizontal
stabs (as opposed to full flying) can be manoeuvred without full
elevator authority, but you're as likely to die as not. As for the
CFI, I suspect his elevator was semi-attached (cup on ball, but not
locked). It is likely that the elevator came disconnected during the
rollout on landing, thus the difficulty with aerotow. (Of course, you
might be able to sell this one, if the cg was up around the rudder
pedals.)


Robert John wrote in
message ...

A chief flying instructor of my acquaintance flew about
300k without realising his elevator was disconnected
(ASW20). The initial launch was a winch which was
fine (back-pressure pushing the elevator up). He landed
out at another airfield and took an aerotow retrieve.
He had to release quickly and land ahead using trim
when the glider climbed uncontrollably. The aerotow
needed forward pressure on the stick (downward 'pull'
on the elevator when on tow). At no time during the
previous flight, including on winch launch, was this
needed, though he did remark that the elevator has
felt a little 'odd' at times!

Rob

I suppose this qualifies as one of those "stranger
things have happened." Lucky, indeed.

I'm with you, Chris. The disconnected elevator push rod can push against the
bottom of the elevator and give somewhat normal up operation, but down is
limited to the airstreem pushing it back down to neutral position. If the push
rod ever slides past the aft end of the elevator, You have just had the snits.
A good CRITICAL ASSEMBLY CHECK, anyone?
JJ Sinclair

JJ Sinclair wrote:

If the push
rod ever slides past the aft end of the elevator, You have just had the snits.
A good CRITICAL ASSEMBLY CHECK, anyone?


Agree JJ, this cannot be stressed enough!!

Not all pilots are as lucky as the cited fellow. I know of 2 ASW-20
pilots who died after having taken off without connecting the elevator.
One of them was used to an LS with automatic control hookups, thus
forgetting the positive post assembly control...

Always do a positive controls check!

Nils

"Andrew Warbrick" wrote in message
...
At 08:06 30 October 2003, Tango4 wrote:
In this case the NTSB is wrong!

With the elevator disconnected the run of the control
rods are not connected
to the flying surface. Therefore the mass balance of
the system is different
to that which was certified, the trim system is also
disconnected!
Definately *not* the same as just removing the pilots
hand from the stick!


Mind the flaps are the major pitch control in the ASW20,
the elevator is there more for fine adjustment. A number
of pilots have produced 'landings' using the flaps
for pitch control in 20's with disconnected elevators.

:-)

PS: I'll bet that they don't comment on whether having
the mainpin in or not
makes the aircraft *flyable* either!

Strange you should mention that. I understand that
a long time ago someone took a Libelle for a local
soaring flight and after a while became uncomfortable.
After loosening his straps and having a fish around
he produced the main pin, the only thing holding the
wings together was friction on the spigots. I believe
that some very gentle well co-ordinated flying ensued
and he landed without incident.

I know of a Kestrel 19 that's done the same, twice. The wing attach design
is very much the same. The pin is not load bearing, but only locks the
wings together. As long a 0 to negative G is avoided, they won't come off.

Earlier, (Mark Grubb) wrote:

...I tested this mode in a -20C
by "locking" the pitch at the
stick with tape (that would
break should I need it to)...

Um, I believe that they're not the same modes. The one is called
"stick-fixed stability" and the other is called "stick-free
stability."

My HP-18, for example, seems to have plenty of the first, and very
little of the second. In the spring I'm going to try building cambered
ruddervators to improve the situation.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com

I know of a Kestrel 19 that's done the same, twice. The wing attach design
is very much the same. The pin is not load bearing, but only locks the
wings together. As long a 0 to negative G is avoided, they won't come off.


Come on guys, this story is getting out of hand. Your asking us to believe that
a Kestrel driver used his neat little wing assembly tool to force his wings
together and then FORGOT to put the main pin in? And you say he did it twice?
That pin is not load bearing, but any turbulance (like what we do to make the
wing come out, on didassembly) will allow the wings to slide out and then our
fictitious Kestrel driver would find himself wingless.
JJ Sinclair

(nowhere) wrote in message om...
Yes, according to Peter Garrison's "Aftermath" column in the November
issue of "Flying" you don't need to connect your elevator control! I
quote: "the NTSB report does not comment on the fact that a
disconnected elevator does not make an ASW-20, or for that matter any
other airplane, unflyable. The situation is aerodynamically no
different from what occurs when the pilot removes his hand from the
stick."

I think I'll start leaving the elevators off my ASW-15 now. Imagine
how the reduction in drag will improve the performance! Not having to
worry about pitch control will certainly cut down on the cockpit
workload as well. The benefits are endless!

Well, it may be flyable, but not landable! The stick free phugoid can
get pretty dramatic, even with the mass and friction of the stick
attached to provide some damping . If you have not tried this, you
should. Keep hands completely off and keep the wings level with
rudder. Let the phugoid fully develop--it's a real roller coaster
ride. Close to the ground, it's a crap shoot whether you would land or
crash.

There was an accident a few years back in a DG-800 that had a loose
nut on the elevator control. The pilot hit on the down part of the
phugoid and crashed wings level. He lived, but never flew again.

The same thing happened to United Flight 232, the DC-10-10, that
crashed while attempting an emergency landing at the Sioux City
Gateway Airport, Iowa, in 1989. After losing all hydraulics, they had
no movable flight controls. They were able to fly the aircraft with
differential thrust on the two wing engines, but they could not
control pitch on final approach.

I have not seen the article, but I'm surprised that a knowledgable
person would suggest that elevator control is optional.