Motorglider and Towered Airport

Tom... thanks for your suggestion.

Could you kindly do me a big favor. I am putting together a
presentation and need specific examples of motorgliders operating out
of Towered Airports and also single runway airports. I am having a
hard time finding specific examples to use in the proposal. I will
need to present the proposal next Wed and so I am a bit behind the
curve. FSDO is being very helpful but we need some ammunition to slay
the dragon (airport manager) with.

I wish to show other locations where self launch sailplans /
motorgliders are able to any of the following:

Safely and effeciently mix with other airtraffic and airlines

Operate on Airports that have a Tower

Operate at Airports that have a Single Runway

A short story including which airport and type of motorglider mixing
with the air traffic and taxi operations.


This is Hawaii... and still a third world country where they shoot
first and ask questions later. It is also one of the top two states
for corruption, Louisiana being the other. That said... Tower guy and
Airport Manager have used the safety and efficency route to stall the
ability for me to fly there. It is just a hurdle that need to be
cleared.

Mahalo
Steve Barnes



(Tom Seim) wrote in message . com...
Steve,

DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO
DO!
Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system.

Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your
rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk
it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you
that they dream up on the spot.

I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without
problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out
of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard
radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use
the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under
power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other
A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then,
generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you
have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the
controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts
controller's atitudes).

This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with
my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have
an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you
hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their
job.

Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't
know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know
this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate.

Tom Seim
DG-400
Richland, WA

Also has the highest consumption of Spam per capita in America but Honolulu
is rated by Men's Health magazine as the leanest city in America.


"Steve B" wrote in message
om...
Tom... thanks for your suggestion.

Could you kindly do me a big favor. I am putting together a
presentation and need specific examples of motorgliders operating out
of Towered Airports and also single runway airports. I am having a
hard time finding specific examples to use in the proposal. I will
need to present the proposal next Wed and so I am a bit behind the
curve. FSDO is being very helpful but we need some ammunition to slay
the dragon (airport manager) with.

I wish to show other locations where self launch sailplans /
motorgliders are able to any of the following:

Safely and effeciently mix with other airtraffic and airlines

Operate on Airports that have a Tower

Operate at Airports that have a Single Runway

A short story including which airport and type of motorglider mixing
with the air traffic and taxi operations.


This is Hawaii... and still a third world country where they shoot
first and ask questions later. It is also one of the top two states
for corruption, Louisiana being the other. That said... Tower guy and
Airport Manager have used the safety and efficency route to stall the
ability for me to fly there. It is just a hurdle that need to be
cleared.

Mahalo
Steve Barnes



(Tom Seim) wrote in message
. com...
Steve,

DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO
DO!
Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system.

Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your
rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk
it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you
that they dream up on the spot.

I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without
problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out
of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard
radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use
the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under
power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other
A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then,
generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you
have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the
controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts
controller's atitudes).

This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with
my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have
an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you
hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their
job.

Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't
know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know
this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate.

Tom Seim
DG-400
Richland, WA

Steve,

No doubt my best example is Hailey, ID, which serves Sun Valley. I
have flown out of this A/P for nearly 20 years, starting with an ASW19
and later with my DG-400. Hailey is the 2nd busiest A/P in Idaho
(after Boise). It has a single runway in a valley surrounded by
mountains. There is A LOT of heavy metal flying into and out of
Hailey because of Sun Valley (Warren Buffet, Arnold, etc.). When I
first started flying there it was uncontrolled. About 1990 they added
a control tower, which really helped (I once had to cut off a Cessna -
Citation that is). Glider ops stopped there a few years ago after the
commercial operator left, but there was never a safety issue. My main
confusion was the difference between cleared to the hold line and
holding on the runway (you REALLY want clearance for departure when
you take a runway that might be seeing a G5 landing at 130 kt!). That
part is really understanding the lingo of the controllers.
Other tower controlled A/Ps I have operated out of include Pasco, WA,
Pendleton, OR, Walla Walla, WA, Felts Field, WA, Geiger (Spokane), WA,
Clarkston, ID and Missoula, MT. The key to integrating into regular
A/P operations is to behave like a regular GA aircraft: no special
requirements. Generally, this means the ability to taxi w/o assistance
(some MGs can't do this, i.e. Ventus and Nimbus). If you can land and
taxi off the runway w/o power then you don't present a problem to the
controllers. This requires consistent energy management, i.e. hitting
a touchdown point within a 100 feet. If absolutely necessary you can
land w/power (POH permitting). I avoid this because this requires an
in-air restart; what if it doesn't start? Then you have an emergency.

Let me know if you have any other questions (tom_systek AT MSN dot
COM).

Tom


(Steve B) wrote in message . com...
Tom... thanks for your suggestion.

Could you kindly do me a big favor. I am putting together a
presentation and need specific examples of motorgliders operating out
of Towered Airports and also single runway airports. I am having a
hard time finding specific examples to use in the proposal. I will
need to present the proposal next Wed and so I am a bit behind the
curve. FSDO is being very helpful but we need some ammunition to slay
the dragon (airport manager) with.

I wish to show other locations where self launch sailplans /
motorgliders are able to any of the following:

Safely and effeciently mix with other airtraffic and airlines

Operate on Airports that have a Tower

Operate at Airports that have a Single Runway

A short story including which airport and type of motorglider mixing
with the air traffic and taxi operations.


This is Hawaii... and still a third world country where they shoot
first and ask questions later. It is also one of the top two states
for corruption, Louisiana being the other. That said... Tower guy and
Airport Manager have used the safety and efficency route to stall the
ability for me to fly there. It is just a hurdle that need to be
cleared.

Mahalo
Steve Barnes



(Tom Seim) wrote in message . com...
Steve,

DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO
DO!
Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system.

Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your
rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk
it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you
that they dream up on the spot.

I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without
problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out
of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard
radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use
the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under
power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other
A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then,
generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you
have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the
controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts
controller's atitudes).

This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with
my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have
an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you
hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their
job.

Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't
know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know
this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate.

Tom Seim
DG-400
Richland, WA

Steve:

As others have mentioned, you don't need permission to operate at a towered
ariport provided you comply with all the appropriate FARs. However, you may
need forgiveness if you disrupt the orderly flow of traffic at a busy
airport!

Scottsdale Arizona (KSDL) is reportedly the busiest single-runway airport in
the country, with a considerable number of general aviation and business jet
aircraft as well as helicopters. There are at least two motor gliders who
are based at or use the airport. In fact, one joined in behind me in the
pattern a couple of days ago (I was pounding holes in the asphalt with a
Cezzna). We were both put on a circuitous route to land with 360s and
extended downwinds to clear jet traffic. ATC treated us both the same (and
extremely well, I might add).

These aircraft are all motorgliders with the ability to taxi and manoever
under power on landing (Katana, Grob 109, etc).

I can see considerable difficulties in landing an unpowered glider at a busy
airport just from the disruption in traffic and the need to get personnel on
the runaway to clear the aircraft. At less busy airports this should not be
a problem but obviously needs the cooperation of airport management and
staff.

Mike

ASW 20 WA


"Steve B" wrote in message
om...
Tom... thanks for your suggestion.

Could you kindly do me a big favor. I am putting together a
presentation and need specific examples of motorgliders operating out
of Towered Airports and also single runway airports. I am having a
hard time finding specific examples to use in the proposal. I will
need to present the proposal next Wed and so I am a bit behind the
curve. FSDO is being very helpful but we need some ammunition to slay
the dragon (airport manager) with.

I wish to show other locations where self launch sailplans /
motorgliders are able to any of the following:

Safely and effeciently mix with other airtraffic and airlines

Operate on Airports that have a Tower

Operate at Airports that have a Single Runway

A short story including which airport and type of motorglider mixing
with the air traffic and taxi operations.


This is Hawaii... and still a third world country where they shoot
first and ask questions later. It is also one of the top two states
for corruption, Louisiana being the other. That said... Tower guy and
Airport Manager have used the safety and efficency route to stall the
ability for me to fly there. It is just a hurdle that need to be
cleared.

Mahalo
Steve Barnes



(Tom Seim) wrote in message
. com...
Steve,

DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO
DO!
Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system.

Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your
rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk
it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you
that they dream up on the spot.

I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without
problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out
of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard
radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use
the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under
power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other
A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then,
generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you
have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the
controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts
controller's atitudes).

This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with
my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have
an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you
hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their
job.

Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't
know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know
this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate.

Tom Seim
DG-400
Richland, WA

Michael Stringfellow wrote:

Scottsdale Arizona (KSDL) is reportedly the busiest single-runway airport in
the country, with a considerable number of general aviation and business jet
aircraft as well as helicopters.

www.airnav.com

Scottsdale: 506 operations/day

McClellan-Palomar: 761 operations/day

and Palomar is about half as long, so simultaneous
landings with 3000 ft separation isn't as easy.

Mark

P.S. And I used to crawl both ways through sleet for 50 miles to
get to kindergarten... :P Yeah, I know...I should stop whining...

Ok... from what I can tell and per suggestions from some very
accomplished and helpful individuals that have been kind enough to
allow me to be a bother... my apologies, Next step is as follows:

A brief letter to the tower, FAA and airport manager stating my
intentions, concern for safety, aircraft limitations (if any), and my
expectations I will ask them to inform me in writing of any
Federal regulations I may be violating by flying there in a polite,
but firm letter. CC my State aviation department, SSA, FAA Washington
(AFS 800) as well as Senators and representatives.

I have not been able in all of my research to find a single comment
that would indicate that this aircraft is in violation of any FAR

or any airport that allows light aircraft to fly that will not allow
this aircraft type to fly.

As well as any Safety or Efficiency issue regarding this aircraft that
would impede or delay operations at a single runway airport as well.
(assuming reasonablness)

So anyway that is plan A.


Now in the for what it's worth category...

One of the airports that I will be flying out of is Upolu on the
northern tip of the Big Island. Just out of curiosity I checked the
utilization...

27 operations per month! man... when I start flying there, they may
actually reach a level of a (natural positive integer)
(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:4002d23b$1@darkstar...
Michael Stringfellow wrote:

Scottsdale Arizona (KSDL) is reportedly the busiest single-runway airport in
the country, with a considerable number of general aviation and business jet
aircraft as well as helicopters.

www.airnav.com

Scottsdale: 506 operations/day

McClellan-Palomar: 761 operations/day

and Palomar is about half as long, so simultaneous
landings with 3000 ft separation isn't as easy.

Mark

P.S. And I used to crawl both ways through sleet for 50 miles to
get to kindergarten... :P Yeah, I know...I should stop whining...