glider/airplane collision

"Kilo Charlie" wrote in message news:22HNb.8888$Xq2.5042@fed1read07...
Please review the facts prior to posting next time.
And for God's sake think about the families and friends involved before
putting this on a public forum.

Casey Lenox
Phoenix

Mr. Lennox,

The facts are similar and involve the risks accepted by low altitude
aerobatics. I guarantee that risk was not contemplated by the
passenger. The creation of an aerobatic box is not some type of
shield that will protect your aircraft. Only your eyes and your
actions can do that.

In my 25 years in aviation, I think daily about families and friends.
Friends I have already lost. These accidents should not be swept
under the rug, for if they are then we are all the worse for it. We
should all resolve to make today safer than yesterday.

I have spoken with the author of that piece, it is NOT about Turf, and
it was not my intention to imply that it was. The ultimate result of
these types of accidents are further restrictions on aviation to the
detriment of us all. I hope you will be able to see that, someday.

Respectfully,
Terry Claussen

The creation of an aerobatic box is not some type of
shield that will protect your aircraft. Only your eyes and your
actions can do that.

Dear Airmen/Airwomen:

There are no guarantees even when we have procedures in effect (aerobatic box).
That is the lesson to be learned. My heart goes out to the family and friends
of these Airmen, what a tragedy.

I came within 5 feet of an American Airlines MD 80 out of Burbank airport, and
we were both talking to the same controller (at slightly different times so I
did not hear the airline clearance). The controller said "sorry guys my
fault," but that would be of little of little condolence to the 92 souls if we
had hit. Ultimately we can only depend on ourselves. What if you are on a
victor hwy at FL20 and someone busts the Class A airspace in front of you? it
is dangerous business even if we just do it for fun and we must always be
aware.

Craig

Unfortunately we all fly invisible aircrafts.
Maybe one day all aircrafts will be required to use technology which exists
for many years and can eliminate midairs.

Ramy

"Shaber CJ" wrote in message
...
The creation of an aerobatic box is not some type of
shield that will protect your aircraft. Only your eyes and your
actions can do that.

Dear Airmen/Airwomen:

There are no guarantees even when we have procedures in effect (aerobatic
box).
That is the lesson to be learned. My heart goes out to the family and
friends
of these Airmen, what a tragedy.

I came within 5 feet of an American Airlines MD 80 out of Burbank airport,
and
we were both talking to the same controller (at slightly different times
so I
did not hear the airline clearance). The controller said "sorry guys my
fault," but that would be of little of little condolence to the 92 souls
if we
had hit. Ultimately we can only depend on ourselves. What if you are on
a
victor hwy at FL20 and someone busts the Class A airspace in front of you?
it
is dangerous business even if we just do it for fun and we must always be
aware.

Craig

Questions to ponder:
1)What was the K21 doing at the top of a loop at approx 800 feet agl, and where
was it a few seconds before that, and at what speed?
2)What is the official floor of the aerobatic box, NTSB states surface to 6600
msl, this must not be correct: How can the box be in the traffic pattern and
still extend to the surface?
3)see FAR 91.303(e) for aerobatic flight AGL limitations.



-
Mark Navarre
ASW-20 OD
California, USA
-

On 2004/01/18 01:08, in article
, "Mark Navarre"
wrote:


2) What is the official floor of the aerobatic box, NTSB states surface to
6600 msl....

The boxes are, very unfortunately, not charted -- but they are listed in the
A/FD, along with their exact locations and dimensions.


How can the box be in the traffic pattern and still extend to the surface?

I think a better question is, "Would you want to fly your traffic pattern
through an existing aerobatic box? I would not.


3)see FAR 91.303(e) for aerobatic flight AGL limitations.

Waivers are available from the FAA and are often used to create aerobatic
boxes and aerobatic practice areas outside the restrictions of 91.303(e).

Take a look at the A/FD for the area, and do a Google search on aerobatic
boxes and practice areas, and waivers to 91.303(e). I think there is a lot
which doesn't get mentioned in the training many of us receive. Aerobatic
boxes and practice areas are one category which is often over looked.



Jack

On 18 Jan 2004 07:08:36 GMT, (Mark Navarre)
wrote:

Questions to ponder:
1)What was the K21 doing at the top of a loop at approx 800 feet agl, and where
was it a few seconds before that, and at what speed?
2)What is the official floor of the aerobatic box, NTSB states surface to 6600
msl, this must not be correct: How can the box be in the traffic pattern and
still extend to the surface?
3)see FAR 91.303(e) for aerobatic flight AGL limitations.

Mark,

One can apply for a waiver to many of the paragraphs of 91.303,
including allowing aerobatics down to the surface, over airports,
within airways, etc. Go to the faa website, search for 8700, the
General Aviation Operations Inspector's Handbook, look in volume 2
chapter 48. It tells all about it.

I have an aerobatic practice box waiver over an airport in Class D
with control tower, light airline traffic, medium bizjet traffic,
gliders, etc. I fly both powered and glider aerobatic aircraft in the
box. Especially for glider aerobatics, you want it right over a
runway. The tower does a good job keeping me separated from other
traffic. The box floor is 500 AGL.

Boxes like that at Turf is not all that uncommon. This is just one
more good reason to read the NOTAMS before you go fly.

Klein

On 2004/01/17 20:34, in article
, "Ramy Yanetz"
wrote:

Unfortunately we all fly invisible aircrafts.
Maybe one day all aircrafts will be required to use technology which exists
for many years and can eliminate midairs.

Thinking "invisible" is good.

Tech is, however, just one more trick in your bag. It cannot eliminate
midairs, anymore than ILS has eliminated landing accidents on IMC
approaches. Available technology can assist alert pilots in avoiding
collisions when used properly, and some of it is affordable.

Though I'll install a mode C transponder in my bird and listen up on the
appropriate frequencies, no piece of equipment can give me a decisive
advantage. Preflight planning that helps me know when and where traffic is
most likely to be a threat is necessary. Keeping my eyes outside the
cockpit, and my head on a swivel is essential. Flying a glider with a
standout paint scheme is helpful.

But there will always be days when there are aircraft out there that you
never know about. The best you can do is to work smart and hard to make sure
that those days are few and far between.



Jack

In article ,
Shaber CJ wrote:
The creation of an aerobatic box is not some type of
shield that will protect your aircraft. Only your eyes and your
actions can do that.

Dear Airmen/Airwomen:

There are no guarantees even when we have procedures in effect (aerobatic box).
That is the lesson to be learned. My heart goes out to the family and friends
of these Airmen, what a tragedy.

One of the newspaper articles said the wreckage was within a few
hundred feet of the airport. Is this true? Does this mean the
aerobatic box is within the traffic pattern of the airport?
And it is a private airport?

The NTSB report seemed to indicate that the PIC for each
flight was flying from the rear seat (including the rear seat of
a high-wing Piper Cub). Is this the understanding
of others as well?

Yesterday I flew a glider solo around our local, private
gliderport, and there was a cropduster doing his dusting
very nearby. I lost sight of him a few times, and it got
me more nervous than usual (mostly because of this thread).
I actually had a low level 1 knot thermal at one point,
but came back and landed instead (after a LOT of S-turning).

I fly a high-wing airplane with bad visibility into our
private airport a lot, and we do training (including simulated
airbrakes stuck open) frequently there. As I think about it,
situations similar to this thread happen at my gliderport evey
week. This is really making me think hard...

What a rotten bit of luck...

Earlier, (Terry Claussen) wrote:

The facts are similar...

Hmmm. They parked the van _where?_

"Terry Claussen" wrote in message
The facts are similar and involve the risks accepted by low altitude
aerobatics. I guarantee that risk was not contemplated by the
passenger. The creation of an aerobatic box is not some type of
shield that will protect your aircraft. Only your eyes and your
actions can do that.
Respectfully,
Terry Claussen

I've been told that the passenger was a REPEAT cutomer for an aerobatic ride
at Turf. I've also been told that the passenger specifically asked for ride
pilot that he got that day. Perhaps he was far more aware of the risks than
you state.

I really, really do appreciate your appearent concern for everyones safety.
I only suggest that you don't put forth your opinions/links/etc. as being
relevant to this accident when I really don't think you know much about the
specifics of what really happened, or the character of those involved. I do
know people who fit the profile of the article you linked to and I did know
the (slightly) the pilot of the glider involved in the subject accident; I
don't think he was anything like what your link describes. To imply this
without any real knowledge is irresponsible, bordering on slanderous, and
cruel.

Mike McNulty