Glider Cross-country signoff & FARs

I don't think the price of the glider has ever been part of the calculation
for landout spots. Many landouts that damage the glider are going to damage
you.

Another point, about "you can land a 1-26 anywhere" is that since
the thing may only be $6,000, one is more able to fly over
questionable landouts. A lot of landouts seem to be
benign for the pilot, but damage the glider. If I was
looking at a $30,000 ASW-20 vs. a $15,000 PW-5, I might
accept lower performance just so I'm not "hangin' out the
$15,000." Even if I got it by buying a raffle ticket! (PEZ).

"Libelle Driver" wrote in message ...
I don't think the price of the glider has ever been part of the calculation
for landout spots. Many landouts that damage the glider are going to damage
you.

I agree; the price of the glider has nothing to do with it; that's
what insurance is for (heck, out here landing out and breaking your
glider is a time-honored method of moving up to something nicer!).
Damaging a glider in a landout is most of all a nuisance issue
(assuming no injuries, of course) because it will put the glider out
of commission until it is fixed and that is a real pain if it happens
early in the season - when landouts are common!

You can land a 1-26 almost anywhere because of the short wings, low
landing speed, and rugged construction/skid. Not so my LS6 - I can't
use roads, and have a relatively small main gear wheel with a lousy
brake, so I have to keep a reasonable landing site in range at all
times - preferably an airport or dirt strip (or nice fields). With a
little planning, and a good database of landing locations in my
computer, that is really not too hard out here in the desert. For the
past few years I have averaged 2 landouts a year, every one at an
airfield or dirt strip, no damage to the glider.

Whenever we fly we all hook up our cars, knowing that if we landout
the herd will gleefully rush home to pile in our rig and rush out to
get the poor slob who couldn't keep it up - and now has to buy them
all dinner, AFTER they drink all his beer! We occasionally aerotow
retrieve, for convenience, but it is a LOT more expensive (and usually
less fun) than a ground retrieve party.

My own record is two retrieves on one day, during a contest: Landed
out in a Grob 102 at a gliderport on the first leg due to lack of
skill, got an aerotow launch and rejoined the gaggle on the return
leg, then promptly landed out again - in a wheat field this time! -
when a stratus deck moved in and cut off all lift (13 gliders landed
out within 15 minutes of each other; only 2 made it home). That ended
up in a midnight "carry the glider out of the field" ground retrieve.
Didn't seem to bother my crew too much, she married me a few years
later, but then again I havn't landed in a wheat field since then
either...

It did, however, earn me the club's "Lead C" award for that year.

Motorgliders may be convenient, and in some places without reliable
towplanes even necessary, but it must be a bit lonelier...I LIKE all
the people and activities needed to make soaring work.

Kirk

Kirk Stant wrote:

I agree; the price of the glider has nothing to do with it; that's
what insurance is for (heck, out here landing out and breaking your
glider is a time-honored method of moving up to something nicer!).

I would guess that the insurance premium for expensive gliders is
er..more expensive. And if you have a claim (or several),
your insurance goes up. The more expensive the glider,
the bigger the claim, and the bigger the premium increase.

Somebody tell me if I'm making this up...

And if you believe the NTSB reports, a LOT of the accidents
were landouts (OK, some are just "crashouts," so maybe this is
a little skewed).

We occasionally aerotow
retrieve, for convenience, but it is a LOT more expensive (and usually
less fun) than a ground retrieve party.

Well, the distances YOU fly, aerotow wouldn't be an option anyway
without several towplane refuelings

For me, it's under $100 every time. ;(


Kirk

Mark James Boyd wrote:

Kirk Stant wrote:

I agree; the price of the glider has nothing to do with it; that's
what insurance is for (heck, out here landing out and breaking your
glider is a time-honored method of moving up to something nicer!).


I would guess that the insurance premium for expensive gliders is
er..more expensive. And if you have a claim (or several),
your insurance goes up. The more expensive the glider,
the bigger the claim, and the bigger the premium increase.

The premium is not a constant percentage of the glider value, because it
costs just as much to repair the wing of new ASW 28 as an old ASW 24.
These less-than-total-loss claims are the big majority of payouts. In
other words, the more expensive the glider, usually not a bigger claim.

There is a chance of a greater total loss, so the premium is a bit
higher to account for that. For example, my ASW 20 C insured for about
$900 (value $35K), but my ASH 26 E insured for $2K (value $110K).

I have no idea how premium increases are affected by the insured value.

--
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change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Mark James Boyd wrote:

Kirk Stant wrote:

I agree; the price of the glider has nothing to do with it; that's
what insurance is for (heck, out here landing out and breaking your
glider is a time-honored method of moving up to something nicer!).


I would guess that the insurance premium for expensive gliders is
er..more expensive. And if you have a claim (or several),
your insurance goes up. The more expensive the glider,
the bigger the claim, and the bigger the premium increase.

The premium is not a constant percentage of the glider value, because it
costs just as much to repair the wing of new ASW 28 as an old ASW 24.
These less-than-total-loss claims are the big majority of payouts. In
other words, the more expensive the glider, usually not a bigger claim.

There is a chance of a greater total loss, so the premium is a bit
higher to account for that. For example, my ASW 20 C insured for about
$900 (value $35K), but my ASH 26 E insured for $2K (value $110K).

I have no idea how premium increases are affected by the insured value.

Eric Greenwell

Perhaps I have overstated the effect of a higher price glider on
caution. Thanks for the figures! I'm a bit surprised.
I'd have thought insurance would be more expensive than what
you have noted.

But then again, I'm still not quite to the point where I'm
ready to voluntarily land off-airport in ANY glider.
I'll need to do a few retrieves (of OTHER pilots)
before I get to this stage...

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:40125065$1@darkstar...

Perhaps I have overstated the effect of a higher price glider on
caution. Thanks for the figures! I'm a bit surprised.
I'd have thought insurance would be more expensive than what
you have noted.

But then again, I'm still not quite to the point where I'm
ready to voluntarily land off-airport in ANY glider.
I'll need to do a few retrieves (of OTHER pilots)
before I get to this stage...

Mark, you actually get into an interesting situation; if you start out
with an inexpensive (read: low performance) glider, then you will
probably land out more often, but as XC experience mounts, and you
move up to a higher performance ship (trust me, L/D is real
addictive!) you will probably land out less off-airfield, due to the
greater options made available by the ship, and also due to greater
skill (assuming at least a basic maintaining of proficiency, which is
crucial to safety as in all aspect of aviation). No one wants to
damage a glider, or get hurt, and that is a big factor when flying XC
- but it is also a big part of the fun - the challenge of going places
safely! I feel now that an off-field landing (not just a landout; but
a landout in a "risky" location (you - as the PIC - have to decide
what is risky based on glider and skill) is the gliding equivalent of
running a powerplane out of gas - A REAL DUMB PILOT ERROR! But at
the same time, landing out safely once and a while is like falling
down while skiing - if you aint doing it, you aint trying, and it is
part of the fun; a real adventure some times...

I don't worry about cost because I now refuse to get out of safe
gliding range of a good landout place (which for me means known
airfields, known good dirt strips, and known good agricultural areas,
in that order). So I spend a lot of time (and money!) on good
navigation systems that give me a lot of info in real time on possible
and reachable landout locations. And during the off-season I get out
and explore for more safe landout sites to add to my data. Some people
joke about GPS, glide computers, and moving maps taking the fun out of
soaring - I think the exact opposite - they take away the worry! Plus
I enjoy setting up and using the toys - I find it fascinating that I
fly with more and better comm and nav systems than I ever did while
flying F-4s in the Air Force.

FYI, I fly with an Ilec SN10 and a Garmin GPS 3 Pilot (redundant
nav/glide info), and my backup vario is a Westerboer VW900. No
mechanical - but two separate and redundant electrical systems.

Absolutely go on as many retrieves for other pilots as you can - it's
the best way to check out a landout location first hand for when you
may need it - Plus it's a free dinner!

And someday you will have to help a friend put his (or her) glider
back into it's trailer in more pieces than it came out, and that too
will help you make smarter decisions in the air, believe me!

Cheers!

Kirk

On 1/24/04 10:01 AM, in article
, "Kirk Stant"
wrote:

And someday you will have to help a friend put his (or her) glider
back into it's trailer in more pieces than it came out, and that too
will help you make smarter decisions in the air, believe me!

Note to self:

Add work gloves (for all personnel) to retrieve kit.


Torn aluminum can cause bad cuts.


-------
Jack
-------

Earlier, "Libelle Driver" wrote:

I don't think the price of the glider
has ever been part of the calculation
for landout spots. Many landouts that
damage the glider are going to damage
you.

Maybe not ever _for you_. It's sure been a factor for me on occasion.

Libelle Driver wrote:
I don't think the price of the glider has ever been part of the calculation
for landout spots. Many landouts that damage the glider are going to damage
you.

I looked up the past 60 accidents on the NTSB database.

11 Fatal
11 Serious
11 Minor
27 Uninjured

38 Minor or uninjured vs. 22 Serious or fatal.
And in "most" of these reports, the glider had
"substantial" damage (otherwise why report it if the
dollar amount is less than $25,000 and there
were no injuries?).

I suspect 4-10 times as many damaging incidents (with
no injuries) occur than the ones reported.

From anectdotal reports, I've also heard specifically that
landouts have a much higher rate of gear-up incidence.
And in all of these that I've heard of (5), the glider
was damaged, but the pilot was completely unharmed.

By "landout" I mean didn't land at the airport of departure...