Puchaz Spinning thread that might be of interest in light of the recent accident.

Folks would like to plod through life thinking that they will
recognize the good old nose up, stall, kick rudder, this must be the
entry to a spin, I can recover from this. Who wouldn't.

The one we like to pound into their memory is the nose level on the
horizon, cross control (over shooting the final)feed in top aileron,
and away you go into the nicest spin entry. Recognize it and recover.
We don't need to let it wind up either.

Again a good cirriculum lets you do this training with a high degree
of safety, if the instructor is properly trained.


Stewart Kissel wrote in message ...
OK JJ, I'll bite (sorta)-

With spin entry training being done so often in benign-handling
ships, what in fact are we teaching/learning?

'Pull back, Pull back, okay kick in full rudder'-and
the thinking might go-'Gee, how does anyone get into
a spin, this is way to much work'

How does this apply the first time someone gets in
a ship that may fall off on its own?



At 18:24 23 January 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
In article ,
JJ Sinclair wrote:
It's winter, I'm bored and I haven't started any good
controversies (this year)
so here goes:

In the early 50's the USAF had a policy to give jump
training to all aircrew
personnel. They soon learned that they were getting
twice the injuries in
training that they were experiencing in real bail-outs.
They decided to stop
the actual jump training and just give PLF and kit
deployment, etc training.

So, JJ asks, In light of recent events that show its
been reining Puchaz's, Do
we really want to teach full blown spins? Isn't spin
entry and immediate
recovery, all we should be doing?

JJ Sinclair

With three times as many fatalities in training than
flying (helicopters),
one wonders the wisdom of practicing hundreds of autorotations
during
helicopter training as well.

That's the one that would get me. Low and slow, sneaking over a fence
needing juuuuuuust liiiiiitle rudder to line up. I think an instructor can
pound into your head NOT to do that, how to check yourself, and let you
practice your stupidity. On my own as a test pilot, I will certainly get
killed.



"SNOOP" wrote in message
om...
Folks would like to plod through life thinking that they will
recognize the good old nose up, stall, kick rudder, this must be the
entry to a spin, I can recover from this. Who wouldn't.

The one we like to pound into their memory is the nose level on the
horizon, cross control (over shooting the final)feed in top aileron,
and away you go into the nicest spin entry. Recognize it and recover.
We don't need to let it wind up either.

Again a good cirriculum lets you do this training with a high degree
of safety, if the instructor is properly trained.

If I took charge of a gliding club using Puchacz(s) for basic training, the
first thing I would do is pile them all in a heap in the corner of the field
and set fire to them.

This may come across as something of a controversial viewpoint. Let me explain.

As far as I know, we are now into double figures (in the UK alone) in terms of
fatalities when it comes to stall/spin accidents in the Puchacz. Compare this
to gliders like the twin Grob and K-21: there are far greater numbers of them
flying many times more hours with a much better record. Even older machines
such as the K-13 stand out well in comparison.

I really can't see the advantage of a training glider that spins so readily and
kills you if you get the recovery (slightly) wrong.

I think some of the instructing fraternity (in the UK) have become too focussed
on spinning as an 'exercise' and not something to be avoided. I believe that if
a significant group of pilots are having _inadvertent_ stall/spin
incidents/accidents when they are flying solo, then there is something very
very wrong with the most elementary training we are giving.

I read and hear much concerning technical details of spinning, i.e. what glider
X does after 5 turns with part aileron and that glider Y flicks when you yank
and stamp on the controls. All fairly irrelevant. If you get to the point of
having to do a full recovery one might question as to how you got there in the
first place. If you are low down (especially in machines like the Puchacz),
where most bad accidents occur, knowing how to recover from a spin is probably
not going to be of much use. Indeed, it may help to make the subsequent impact
unsurviveable.

What we seem to be failing to do is to instill a basic awareness of what the
glider is up to, and the _instinctive_ reactions required if the airframe stops
responding to your commands. Mike Cuming wrote a seminal article in S&G, some
years back, entiltled: "STOP PULLING THE STICK BACK!". This should be required
reading for all pre-solo students.

If you really want to show people full-blooded spins and recoveries, take them
up to a safe height in an aerobatic power aircraft, certified for those kind of
manoevres. You will be able to do much more for a lot less money.

Frankly, I see little point in making pilots deliberately demonstrate their
'expertise' in abusing a glider to the point it autorotates, then attempting to
do something about it. This is not the world aerobatic championships. I would
much rather see immediate instinctive corrections to any possible loss of
control.

To the experienced pilots/instructors reading this: when was the last time you
ended up (inadvertently) in a spin? Yes, you get wing drops in thermals etc.
but do you sit there, doing nothing, until the ground and sky start going round
very fast? No. I'm sure you don't, as you are alive to read this.

What drove me to stay up at night to write this post was a feeling of
anger/helplessness/sadness that yet more people have died in what I regard as a
pointless exercise. I knew the P1 in the double-fatal crash this week but not
his fifteen year old student.

Safe flying to all of you.

On 25 Jan 2004 01:26:39 GMT, (Edward Downham)
wrote:

If I took charge of a gliding club using Puchacz(s) for basic training, the
first thing I would do is pile them all in a heap in the corner of the field
and set fire to them.

This may come across as something of a controversial viewpoint. Let me explain.

As far as I know, we are now into double figures (in the UK alone) in terms of
fatalities when it comes to stall/spin accidents in the Puchacz. Compare this
to gliders like the twin Grob and K-21: there are far greater numbers of them
flying many times more hours with a much better record. Even older machines
such as the K-13 stand out well in comparison.

I really can't see the advantage of a training glider that spins so readily and
kills you if you get the recovery (slightly) wrong.

I think some of the instructing fraternity (in the UK) have become too focussed
on spinning as an 'exercise' and not something to be avoided. I believe that if
a significant group of pilots are having _inadvertent_ stall/spin
incidents/accidents when they are flying solo, then there is something very
very wrong with the most elementary training we are giving.

I read and hear much concerning technical details of spinning, i.e. what glider
X does after 5 turns with part aileron and that glider Y flicks when you yank
and stamp on the controls. All fairly irrelevant. If you get to the point of
having to do a full recovery one might question as to how you got there in the
first place. If you are low down (especially in machines like the Puchacz),
where most bad accidents occur, knowing how to recover from a spin is probably
not going to be of much use. Indeed, it may help to make the subsequent impact
unsurviveable.

What we seem to be failing to do is to instill a basic awareness of what the
glider is up to, and the _instinctive_ reactions required if the airframe stops
responding to your commands. Mike Cuming wrote a seminal article in S&G, some
years back, entiltled: "STOP PULLING THE STICK BACK!". This should be required
reading for all pre-solo students.

If you really want to show people full-blooded spins and recoveries, take them
up to a safe height in an aerobatic power aircraft, certified for those kind of
manoevres. You will be able to do much more for a lot less money.

Frankly, I see little point in making pilots deliberately demonstrate their
'expertise' in abusing a glider to the point it autorotates, then attempting to
do something about it. This is not the world aerobatic championships. I would
much rather see immediate instinctive corrections to any possible loss of
control.

To the experienced pilots/instructors reading this: when was the last time you
ended up (inadvertently) in a spin? Yes, you get wing drops in thermals etc.
but do you sit there, doing nothing, until the ground and sky start going round
very fast? No. I'm sure you don't, as you are alive to read this.

What drove me to stay up at night to write this post was a feeling of
anger/helplessness/sadness that yet more people have died in what I regard as a
pointless exercise. I knew the P1 in the double-fatal crash this week but not
his fifteen year old student.

Safe flying to all of you.




Thank you Edward. That is the best article on this issue I have ever
seen.

I agree 100% and particularly with the "do it in a power plane
designed for this". I did this two years ago in a Pitts S2A with an
experienced airshow pilot who is also an aerobatic instructor. We both
wore parachutes, had a proper briefing and agreed to abandon ship if
control not regained by 4000 feet AGL. All spins were begun from at
least 9000 feet. I learned more about spinning in that hour than in my
previous 35 years flying.

Now for a solution to keep everyone happy - I believe we have the
technology to build a realistic, close to full motion, spin simulator
at an affordable price.
This will allow through and complete exploration of the pre stall,
stall and spin regime for training and combine this with one real full
spin aircraft exercise at altitude with proper precautions and
briefing.

Lets do this and stop killing people in training exercises.

We lost a couple of people in Australia a few years ago in a Blanik
during an annual "spin check".
The spin turned into a spiral and the aircraft broke up in the
recovery. They weren't at high altitude nor wearing parachutes.

Many experienced pilots I know flat out refuse to do full spins during
annual checks as being an unnecessary risk. They will happily
demonstrate stalls and incipient spins.

Mike Borgelt

"Mike Borgelt" wrote in message
news
On 25 Jan 2004 01:26:39 GMT, (Edward Downham)
wrote:

If I took charge of a gliding club using Puchacz(s) for basic training,
the
first thing I would do is pile them all in a heap in the corner of the
field
and set fire to them.

This may come across as something of a controversial viewpoint. Let me
explain.

As far as I know, we are now into double figures (in the UK alone) in
terms of
fatalities when it comes to stall/spin accidents in the Puchacz. Compare
this
to gliders like the twin Grob and K-21: there are far greater numbers of
them
flying many times more hours with a much better record. Even older
machines
such as the K-13 stand out well in comparison.

I really can't see the advantage of a training glider that spins so
readily and
kills you if you get the recovery (slightly) wrong.

I think some of the instructing fraternity (in the UK) have become too
focussed
on spinning as an 'exercise' and not something to be avoided. I believe
that if
a significant group of pilots are having _inadvertent_ stall/spin
incidents/accidents when they are flying solo, then there is something
very
very wrong with the most elementary training we are giving.

I read and hear much concerning technical details of spinning, i.e. what
glider
X does after 5 turns with part aileron and that glider Y flicks when you
yank
and stamp on the controls. All fairly irrelevant. If you get to the point
of
having to do a full recovery one might question as to how you got there
in the
first place. If you are low down (especially in machines like the
Puchacz),
where most bad accidents occur, knowing how to recover from a spin is
probably
not going to be of much use. Indeed, it may help to make the subsequent
impact
unsurviveable.

What we seem to be failing to do is to instill a basic awareness of what
the
glider is up to, and the _instinctive_ reactions required if the airframe
stops
responding to your commands. Mike Cuming wrote a seminal article in S&G,
some
years back, entiltled: "STOP PULLING THE STICK BACK!". This should be
required
reading for all pre-solo students.

If you really want to show people full-blooded spins and recoveries, take
them
up to a safe height in an aerobatic power aircraft, certified for those
kind of
manoevres. You will be able to do much more for a lot less money.

Frankly, I see little point in making pilots deliberately demonstrate
their
'expertise' in abusing a glider to the point it autorotates, then
attempting to
do something about it. This is not the world aerobatic championships. I
would
much rather see immediate instinctive corrections to any possible loss of
control.

To the experienced pilots/instructors reading this: when was the last
time you
ended up (inadvertently) in a spin? Yes, you get wing drops in thermals
etc.
but do you sit there, doing nothing, until the ground and sky start going
round
very fast? No. I'm sure you don't, as you are alive to read this.

What drove me to stay up at night to write this post was a feeling of
anger/helplessness/sadness that yet more people have died in what I
regard as a
pointless exercise. I knew the P1 in the double-fatal crash this week but
not
his fifteen year old student.

Safe flying to all of you.




Thank you Edward. That is the best article on this issue I have ever
seen.

I agree 100% and particularly with the "do it in a power plane
designed for this". I did this two years ago in a Pitts S2A with an
experienced airshow pilot who is also an aerobatic instructor. We both
wore parachutes, had a proper briefing and agreed to abandon ship if
control not regained by 4000 feet AGL. All spins were begun from at
least 9000 feet. I learned more about spinning in that hour than in my
previous 35 years flying.

Now for a solution to keep everyone happy - I believe we have the
technology to build a realistic, close to full motion, spin simulator
at an affordable price.
This will allow through and complete exploration of the pre stall,
stall and spin regime for training and combine this with one real full
spin aircraft exercise at altitude with proper precautions and
briefing.

Lets do this and stop killing people in training exercises.

We lost a couple of people in Australia a few years ago in a Blanik
during an annual "spin check".
The spin turned into a spiral and the aircraft broke up in the
recovery. They weren't at high altitude nor wearing parachutes.

Many experienced pilots I know flat out refuse to do full spins during
annual checks as being an unnecessary risk. They will happily
demonstrate stalls and incipient spins.

Mike Borgelt

I did an annual check of a ATP pilot who owns a glider. He had also been
flying aerobatic aircraft such as the Citabria and PItts. The annual check
was in a Blanik L-23. We decided on a two turn spin so that I could know
when to expect a recovery attempt.

At two turns, I saw the rear pedals shift to their anti-spin position but
the stick remained aft of center and the L-23 continued to spin as if
nothing had been done to stop it. I said, "two turns" to remind him of our
bargain. Then the stick moved forward and the glider stopped rotating and
entered the recovery dive.

Asked about the delay in recovery, the pilot said that the standard recovery
technique used in the powered aircraft he had been flying was just to
reverse the rudder and to keep the stick aft of center. I pointed out that
every glider I knew of required forward stick for a sure recovery. (We did
several more spins until we both were comfortable with his spin recovery
technique.)

I think the take-home lesson is that airplanes can spin more benignly than
gliders. Relying on spin training in airplanes is just not always
appropriate and can leave the pilot with misconceptions about glider spin
recovery.

I think that, if you fly gliders that will spin, it is wise to experience
the spin recovery at least once and preferably more often than that.

That said, there is nothing wrong with basic training that emphasizes
recognition of an incipient spin over spin recovery. Recognition that a
spin is imminent, and knowledge of the technique to prevent it, will save
more lives than expert spin recovery.

So, is spin training dangerous? Yes, but much less dangerous than not doing
spin training. The path from novice to expert is sometimes fraught with
peril but remaining a novice is more dangerous still. The Puch, Blanik, and
Lark spin more like the glass gliders most of us fly. As such, they are
excellent trainers. Just choose an instructor that is very experienced with
them.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:56:36 -0700, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:


Asked about the delay in recovery, the pilot said that the standard recovery
technique used in the powered aircraft he had been flying was just to
reverse the rudder and to keep the stick aft of center. I pointed out that
every glider I knew of required forward stick for a sure recovery. (We did
several more spins until we both were comfortable with his spin recovery
technique.)

I think the take-home lesson is that airplanes can spin more benignly than
gliders. Relying on spin training in airplanes is just not always
appropriate and can leave the pilot with misconceptions about glider spin
recovery.

I think the gentleman's spin recovery training was suspect. Since when
was standard spin recovery other than:

Full opposite rudder
Pause
Move the stick forward
When the spin stops centralise rudder and recover gently from the
dive?

Even if the aircraft recovers with mere application of opposite rudder
surely the full standard recovery must be taught?

The fatality in the Blanik here a few years ago was that the spin
became a spiral so even the Blanik won't necessarily stay in a spin.

I think that, if you fly gliders that will spin, it is wise to experience
the spin recovery at least once and preferably more often than that.

As I said I agree. Note however you cannot do this in all types that
you fly. Some like the Standard Libelle and Nimbus 3DM are placarded
against deliberate spins.

That said, there is nothing wrong with basic training that emphasizes
recognition of an incipient spin over spin recovery. Recognition that a
spin is imminent, and knowledge of the technique to prevent it, will save
more lives than expert spin recovery.

So, is spin training dangerous? Yes, but much less dangerous than not doing
spin training. The path from novice to expert is sometimes fraught with
peril but remaining a novice is more dangerous still. The Puch, Blanik, and
Lark spin more like the glass gliders most of us fly. As such, they are
excellent trainers. Just choose an instructor that is very experienced with
them.

Bill Daniels

When two testpilot/spin instructors, at least one of whom had
extensive spin experience in gliders can kill themselves in a Puch by
spinning in I wonder how much experience the instructor has to have?

The experienced cross country pilots I know never spin accidently. At
most they may get a wing drop in a thermal. The question is what do
they know or do that prevents them from ever spinning accidently?
If we find this out we might make some progress.

Mike

"Mike Borgelt" wrote in message
...

Snip---

When two testpilot/spin instructors, at least one of whom had
extensive spin experience in gliders can kill themselves in a Puch by
spinning in I wonder how much experience the instructor has to have?

Snip---

Mike

It does make one wonder. I seem to recall something on r.a.s. to the effect
that an inspection of a Puch in the USA turned up a metal plate that was
adrift somewhere in the rudder control curcuit. This loose plate, it was
said, could prevent the rudder from moving back from the fully deflected
position. I seem to recall that it was suspected that some of the spin-in
accidents might be due to this.

Perhaps someone with a better memory will comment.

Bill Daniels

If you read the other thread about spinning you may understand what
experienced pilots do.
Recovery from incipient spins might be just a sligh easing of the stick with
slight opposite rudder pressure.
No need to dive inside the thermal.

However, the only way to recognize this condition is to train for it, while
also training for fully developed spins, resulting from level attitudes with
pro-turn rudder and low speed (a definite killer in low altitudes).

The reference to the more benign spin characteristic of some training
airplanes is true.
In some of them you don't need to move the stick full forward to recover
from a spin.
Basically the spin breaks off very easily with just a sligh easing of the
control column forward and opposite rudder.
Full forward stick will only cause an excessively nose-low attitude
resulting in a high-speed dive following the spin.
But this is only true in certain aircraft, and if the pilot trains in them
he will recognize this.

The Puchacz has a similar characteristic, actually.
If you press opposite rudder while keeping the stick aft, nothing much
happens for a full turn (I never went beyond that).
But with this opposit rudder applied, as soon as back pressure on the stick
is removed, the glider sort of "snaps" out of the spin.
There is no need to move the stick all the way forward or you will then be
in an aerobatic, 90 degree nose-low dive.
Unnecessary.

As I pointed out earlier, Dick Johnson tested the Puchacz and gave it a
clean bill of health.
www.ssa.org, click on Magazines, Dick Johnson, scroll down to find the
Puchacz evaluations (2 articles).


"Mike Borgelt" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:56:36 -0700, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:


Asked about the delay in recovery, the pilot said that the standard
recovery
technique used in the powered aircraft he had been flying was just to
reverse the rudder and to keep the stick aft of center. I pointed out
that
every glider I knew of required forward stick for a sure recovery. (We
did
several more spins until we both were comfortable with his spin recovery
technique.)

I think the take-home lesson is that airplanes can spin more benignly
than
gliders. Relying on spin training in airplanes is just not always
appropriate and can leave the pilot with misconceptions about glider spin
recovery.

I think the gentleman's spin recovery training was suspect. Since when
was standard spin recovery other than:

Full opposite rudder
Pause
Move the stick forward
When the spin stops centralise rudder and recover gently from the
dive?

Even if the aircraft recovers with mere application of opposite rudder
surely the full standard recovery must be taught?

The fatality in the Blanik here a few years ago was that the spin
became a spiral so even the Blanik won't necessarily stay in a spin.

I think that, if you fly gliders that will spin, it is wise to experience
the spin recovery at least once and preferably more often than that.

As I said I agree. Note however you cannot do this in all types that
you fly. Some like the Standard Libelle and Nimbus 3DM are placarded
against deliberate spins.

That said, there is nothing wrong with basic training that emphasizes
recognition of an incipient spin over spin recovery. Recognition that a
spin is imminent, and knowledge of the technique to prevent it, will save
more lives than expert spin recovery.

So, is spin training dangerous? Yes, but much less dangerous than not
doing
spin training. The path from novice to expert is sometimes fraught with
peril but remaining a novice is more dangerous still. The Puch, Blanik,
and
Lark spin more like the glass gliders most of us fly. As such, they are
excellent trainers. Just choose an instructor that is very experienced
with
them.

Bill Daniels

When two testpilot/spin instructors, at least one of whom had
extensive spin experience in gliders can kill themselves in a Puch by
spinning in I wonder how much experience the instructor has to have?

The experienced cross country pilots I know never spin accidently. At
most they may get a wing drop in a thermal. The question is what do
they know or do that prevents them from ever spinning accidently?
If we find this out we might make some progress.

Mike

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 00:15:20 UTC, Mike Borgelt
wrote:

: Many experienced pilots I know flat out refuse to do full spins during
: annual checks as being an unnecessary risk. They will happily
: demonstrate stalls and incipient spins.

I would hate to have somebody as nervous about their flying skills as
that above me in a thermal.

Ian
--

On 26 Jan 2004 14:29:29 GMT, "Ian Johnston"
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 00:15:20 UTC, Mike Borgelt
wrote:

: Many experienced pilots I know flat out refuse to do full spins during
: annual checks as being an unnecessary risk. They will happily
: demonstrate stalls and incipient spins.

I would hate to have somebody as nervous about their flying skills as
that above me in a thermal.

Ian


It is called risk management. They fly gliders to go soaring not to do
aerobatics. Most of them have thousands of hours of flying cross
country and in competition. They consider it far riskier to do spins
in gliders of uncertain history with instructors of little experience
and training who typically seem to them to demonstrate dangerous
overconfidence.

And they won't spin down on you from above.

Some of the attitudes revealed in this thread make me despair that
anything will ever happen to improve the soaring safety record.

Mike Borgelt