Puchaz Spinning thread that might be of interest in light of the recent accident.

"F1y1n" wrote in message
om...

I once asked an instructor to demonstrate a spin in a two-seat
aircraft I was transitioning into.

Did you have chutes? In the US, the only time you are allowed to spin
dual without chutes is when you are working on a rating that requires spin
training. If you were asking the CFI to spin without chutes (just a wild
guess), he was 100% correct to turn you down. I would too.

I would also refuse to spin a student in a glider that I had not
previously spun myself.

...In my opinion this guy should have been
stripped of his FAA ratings. Somebody who hasn't spun a glider and
recovered should not be allowed to carry passangers,

Like it or not; in the US, spin training is not required for the
commercial rating...

much less to instruct.

...but it is required for CFI. That does not make every CFI a
qualified acro jock.

A spin is a well-behaved, predictable flight regime...

Not necessarily true, not even true of all trainers. Some gliders
have, (or at least are reputed to have) multiple spin modes. Not all
aircraft have perfect rigging, and a certain percentage have accumulated
repairs and/or mods over years of operation that change the distribution of
mass about the various axis and have an unknown effect on spin behavior.

Just two weeks ago, I found myself practicing stalls in a 152 that I
wouldn't spin in a bet. It had a dent in the leading edge of one wing and
had a nasty wing drop at every stall, but otherwise performed well.

Vaughn



that is
documented in the aircraft manual (of most gliders). Somebody unable
or unwilling to enter this flight regime is incompetent and can not
call himself a pilot in my opinion.

"Vaughn" wrote in message ...
"F1y1n" wrote in message
om...

I once asked an instructor to demonstrate a spin in a two-seat
aircraft I was transitioning into.

Did you have chutes? In the US, the only time you are allowed to spin
dual without chutes is when you are working on a rating that requires spin
training. If you were asking the CFI to spin without chutes (just a wild
guess), he was 100% correct to turn you down. I would too.

Unless you are already CFIG, you are always 'working on a rating' when
flying dual with a (current) CFIG. No parachutes needed for spinning.
And no, as I said, he did not turn me down because of the lack of a
chute.

I would also refuse to spin a student in a glider that I had not
previously spun myself.

This begs the question: Why the hell would you instruct in an aircraft
you haven't spun yourself? Doing so would be foolish, IMHO.

Like it or not;

not

in the US, spin training is not required for the
commercial rating...

...but it is required for CFI. That does not make every CFI a
qualified acro jock.

If you read the FARs you will find that spin training is not acro.

A spin is a well-behaved, predictable flight regime...

Not necessarily true, not even true of all trainers. Some gliders
have, (or at least are reputed to have) multiple spin modes.

The spin rate, pitch angle, descent rate, and any pitch oscillation
amplitude and frequency does depend on the CG and gross weight, sure,
but a spin within the CG in an approved glider with a standard
airworthiness certificate is always benign can be recovered using the
documented procedures. As I said: 'well-behaved' and 'predictable'.

Not all
aircraft have perfect rigging, and a certain percentage have accumulated
repairs and/or mods over years of operation that change the distribution of
mass about the various axis and have an unknown effect on spin behavior.

Any mods that effect the CG require a new weight & balance. See my
comment above re safe flight within CG. You'd be suicidal flying a
glider with an unkown spin behavior. Instructing in one would be
border-line criminal. My point is: a spin is not some black magic.
Learn it, and instruct it. If you are afraid of spinning you shouldn't
be flying, much less teaching.

Just two weeks ago, I found myself practicing stalls in a 152 that I
wouldn't spin in a bet. It had a dent in the leading edge of one wing and
had a nasty wing drop at every stall, but otherwise performed well.

Most 150s and 152s I have flown drop a wing at stall, as do many older
gliders. Does this make them unsafe to spin? Emphatically no! They
will spin happily in either direction.

"F1y1n" wrote in message

snip
amplitude and frequency does depend on the CG and gross weight, sure,
but a spin within the CG in an approved glider with a standard
airworthiness certificate is always benign can be recovered using the
documented procedures. As I said: 'well-behaved' and 'predictable'.

Up to the two turn JAR 22 test standard for modern gliders. Beyond that,
you are a test pilot.

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

"F1y1n" wrote in message

snip
amplitude and frequency does depend on the CG and gross weight, sure,
but a spin within the CG in an approved glider with a standard
airworthiness certificate is always benign can be recovered using the
documented procedures. As I said: 'well-behaved' and 'predictable'.

Not true. The official procedures for weight and balance
miss a lot of subtlety. There are those who believe
this is what killed Art Scholl...

Think about it...

"F1y1n" wrote in message
om...
"Vaughn" wrote in message
...
"F1y1n" wrote in message
om...

I once asked an instructor to demonstrate a spin in a two-seat
aircraft I was transitioning into.

Did you have chutes? In the US, the only time you are allowed to
spin
dual without chutes is when you are working on a rating that requires
spin
training. If you were asking the CFI to spin without chutes (just a
wild
guess), he was 100% correct to turn you down. I would too.

Unless you are already CFIG, you are always 'working on a rating' when
flying dual with a (current) CFIG. No parachutes needed for spinning.
And no, as I said, he did not turn me down because of the lack of a
chute.

Wrong. This is a very optimistic intrepetation of the FARs that I have
heard before, I doubt that it would fly with the FAA. If you don't have a
commercial, you are not "working on your CFI".


I would also refuse to spin a student in a glider that I had not
previously spun myself.

This begs the question: Why the hell would you instruct in an aircraft
you haven't spun yourself? Doing so would be foolish, IMHO.

It is done all the time.

Like it or not;

not

Take it up with the feds, I actually agree. (for the record, I delayed
my solo until I received spin training)


in the US, spin training is not required for the
commercial rating...

...but it is required for CFI. That does not make every CFI a
qualified acro jock.

If you read the FARs you will find that spin training is not acro.

Where?


A spin is a well-behaved, predictable flight regime...

Not necessarily true, not even true of all trainers. Some gliders
have, (or at least are reputed to have) multiple spin modes.

The spin rate, pitch angle, descent rate, and any pitch oscillation
amplitude and frequency does depend on the CG and gross weight, sure,
but a spin within the CG in an approved glider with a standard
airworthiness certificate is always benign can be recovered using the
documented procedures. As I said: 'well-behaved' and 'predictable'.

Read the rest of this thread, and then go back and google old threads
on the Puchaz.

Not all
aircraft have perfect rigging, and a certain percentage have accumulated
repairs and/or mods over years of operation that change the distribution
of
mass about the various axis and have an unknown effect on spin behavior.

Any mods that effect the CG require a new weight & balance. See my
comment above re safe flight within CG. You'd be suicidal flying a
glider with an unkown spin behavior. Instructing in one would be
border-line criminal. My point is: a spin is not some black magic.
Learn it, and instruct it. If you are afraid of spinning you shouldn't
be flying, much less teaching.

There is more to it than weight and balance, the distribution of weight
around the cg is very important to spin behaviour. My point is that the
glider on the flight line may not be the same as the glider that was
manufactured. It is idiocy to assume it will always behave the same.


Just two weeks ago, I found myself practicing stalls in a 152 that
I
wouldn't spin in a bet. It had a dent in the leading edge of one wing
and
had a nasty wing drop at every stall, but otherwise performed well.

Most 150s and 152s I have flown drop a wing at stall, as do many older
gliders. Does this make them unsafe to spin? Emphatically no! They
will spin happily in either direction.

Again; this was not the same airplane that left the factory, the
airfoils were no longer symmetrical right and left. The airplane follows
the laws of physics, it can't read the flight manual.

Have a nice life;
Vaughn

"Vaughn" wrote:

snip

Unless you are already CFIG, you are always 'working on a rating' when
flying dual with a (current) CFIG. No parachutes needed for spinning.
And no, as I said, he did not turn me down because of the lack of a
chute.

Wrong. This is a very optimistic intrepetation of the FARs that I have
heard before, I doubt that it would fly with the FAA. If you don't have a
commercial, you are not "working on your CFI".


snip

Actually Vaugn, you are wrong. Parachutes are not required for spin
training. This issue is addressed by the FAA in the Frequently Asked
Questions section of their web site. Below is a copy of the question
and answer. (The URL for the entire FAQ document is:
http://av-info.faa.gov/data/640otherfaq/pt61-17.pdf )

FAQs Part 61 With Chg #17, 08/22/2002
All Q&A’s from #1 through #522
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
14 CFR, PART 61
ARRANGED BY SECTION
MAINTAINED BY ALLAN PINKSTON
PILOT EXAMINER STANDARDIZATION TEAM, AFS-640
Contact: Allan Pinkston phone: (405) 954 - 6472
E-Mail:


QUESTION: Situation is, I am a flight instructor and I have a student
who is a Private Pilot and is rated in a
single-engine land airplane. This pilot is not seeking any further
rating, but wants me to give him flight training on
"stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery techniques"
just like it says in §61.105. The question is,
under §91.307(c) are parachutes required for this kind of training?
ANSWER: §61.105; No parachute is required. Historically the FAA’s
position on this issue, we have
determined since this training is a private pilot requirement that is
addressed in §61.105 as an aeronautical
knowledge training area and the person is merely receiving training on
a piloting skill that is a pilot certification
requirement for receiving, and for maintaining, that private pilot
certificate, parachutes are NOT required. The
rationale of this determination, also covers student pilots,
commercial pilots, airline transport pilots, and flight
instructors. But as always, the FAA would never discourage the use of
parachutes.
{Q&A-136}

"JC" jrc at visi.dot com wrote in message
...

Actually Vaugn, you are wrong. Parachutes are not required for spin
training. This issue is addressed by the FAA in the Frequently Asked
Questions section of their web site. Below is a copy of the question
and answer. (The URL for the entire FAQ document is:
http://av-info.faa.gov/data/640otherfaq/pt61-17.pdf )

I stand corrected.

Vaughn