Handling characteristics of 18 (and 15) meter sailplanes???

Rory O'Conor wrote:

Apart from initial cost and traditionalism - "gliders dont have engines", I
cannot
understand why so few people have SLMG.

"Apart from the cost"? It is the cost. If a motor could be added for
$2000, everyone would have one, but not at $25,000 for the motor,
typical for the German gliders. THe newer, smaller motorgliders like the
Russia AC-5M (over 30 sold in a very short time), Apis, and Silent will
add a lot of motorgliders to the fleet, because the motor is more like
$10,000 additional, and the glider is cheaper to begin with.

Even so, the complexity alone will keep many out of motorgliders; and
some simply don't need the advantages of self-launchers because they
already get the flying they want when they want it.

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Rory O'Conor wrote:

Apart from initial cost and traditionalism - "gliders dont have engines", I
cannot
understand why so few people have SLMG.

I suspect that Eric's earlier response, about the higher capital cost
of a SLSP or MG is the main reason there aren't more of them. I know
several people who flew pure gliders until they could afford a MG or
SLSP.

But, in addition to the capital cost, there's also the higher ongoing
maintenance cost -- both in $ and time. I sometimes joke that a motor
glider has 10x the maintenance of a pure glider, but is 10x more
useful.

While the actual numbers depend on the specific ship and are hard to
pin down, in reality, for me, I suspect the maintenance increase is
more like a factor of 2-4, not 10, but the utility factor increase is
well over 10 times. So, for me, the extra work is well worth it. But,
for someone else with different constraints and options, adding a
motor might not be worth the trouble. What are some of the factors
that make a SLSP/MG more or less useful?

1. Whether you live near good soaring. I live in the SF Bay Area, with
minimal local soaring. If I lived in Minden, the value of an engine
would be smaller. With a MG, it's a lot closer to living in Minden. I
can fly there in 1.5 hours, so I've done a number of 1 day soaring
trips, launching about noon, returning about 6 PM, with three hours of
great soaring in the middle. A weekend is even better, but would be
minimal if I had a 5 hour drive to Minden, and then back again.

2. Distance to a gliderport vs. an airport that can handle a MG.

3. Whether you are willing to do cross country soaring without an
engine. For the year that I flew pure gliders, I never strayed out of
gliding distance of the glider port -- tho at Minden that could mean
quite some distance on a good day. I wasn't willing to take the chance
of having to land out, and be stuck til an aero retrieve or trailer
could fetch me, possibly not until the next day. I had always intended
moving quickly to a MG so I could do cross country soaring with less
uncertainty as to my return time.

4. Taste. Some people like me will love the freedom of an engine being
there. Others will scoff at the lack of purity. Neither is right or
wrong. Just different tastes. And tastes change with time, so the guy
who was a purist in his 20's might opt for an engine in his 50's --
when he's also more likely to be able to afford it.

Martin

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Rory O'Conor wrote:

Apart from initial cost and traditionalism - "gliders dont have
engines", I
cannot
understand why so few people have SLMG.

"Apart from the cost"? It is the cost. If a motor could be added for
$2000, everyone would have one, but not at $25,000 for the motor,
typical for the German gliders. THe newer, smaller motorgliders like the
Russia AC-5M (over 30 sold in a very short time), Apis, and Silent will
add a lot of motorgliders to the fleet, because the motor is more like
$10,000 additional, and the glider is cheaper to begin with.

Even so, the complexity alone will keep many out of motorgliders; and
some simply don't need the advantages of self-launchers because they
already get the flying they want when they want it.

--
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

You can buy a lot of launches (especially ground launches) for $25K, or even
$10K.

I know the reliability factor has improved, but many hours on the ground
were spent in maintenance and tuning and fettling for the early adopters. I
think today it's much better, but then today's reliability came at a price.

Though the convenience factor is an interesting consideration, I personally
view soaring as a sociable pastime and prefer gathering together with the
faithful in its pursuit.

I could also scuba dive and sail alone, but it was more dangerous and lonely
than doing it in a gaggle.

Don't get me wrong, I looked long and hard at the DG-400 in the early
1980's. Self launching has its place, but given the choice, I'll take a
ground launch, aerotow, or self launch, in that order.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...

Don't get me wrong, I looked long and hard at the DG-400 in the early
1980's. Self launching has its place, but given the choice, I'll take a
ground launch, aerotow, or self launch, in that order.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado



Frank,

I wouldn't argue about your choice of launches, getting checked out for
ground launch remains one of my goals.

Eric Greenwell has said it before, it's all about opportunity. It's not just
about the launch, though not having to wait can be nice. It's being able to
head out with no concern for retrieves, or being unable to get home for
dinner and much more. A SL allows me to soar in places I'd not otherwise
consider, like launching from the Bay Area and soaring Yosemite, then on to
Lee Vining and up to Minden. Or flying an 8 day safari from CA to Telluride
with 3 other SLs . . . no tag-along tow plane needed. It's about opportunity
and freedom . . . yes there's a price.

I've heard 75% of new German gliders are ordered with motors, so people are
stepping up and paying that price. People will do that sort of thing when it
comes to freedom.

--
bumper ZZ (reverse all after @)
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."

"bumper" wrote in message ...
"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...

Don't get me wrong, I looked long and hard at the DG-400 in the early
1980's. Self launching has its place, but given the choice, I'll take a
ground launch, aerotow, or self launch, in that order.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado


Hi there Eastern Slopes!

I know you guys get your kicks playing with your winch! I have the
experience, sign off, do get some more in Germany when visiting.

Where I fly, only SL is possible anymore, with a mile long taxi to the
take off point. I think there is only one place in western CO left,
that does conventional Soaring. There are several Selflaunchers
though. Possibly it has to do with real estate, in certain areas.
Ground Launch where you have a lot of it. Where you have a lot of open
space you do not get enough people together to run a winch operation.
You are the exeption, nice! You do need help. Sometimes I decide to go
flying as late as 5 O'clock middle of the summer any day, no one else
to call, only the tower for take off clearance.

I have flown two different types of SLs during the last 11 years, and
had years where there was hardly any maintenance between Annuals. My
towplanes that I used to own had more.

Note that during the "Worlds" Germans and Poles were flying SLs in the
open class.

My first Motorglider I owned, was in 1966 a .....Rheinflugzeugbau RW
3, powered by a 90 hp Porsche Super 90 converted to aircraft use and
type certificated by the FAA,...the airframe was too!

Dieter
Gliders Of Aspen

"soarski" wrote in message
om...


My first Motorglider I owned, was in 1966 a .....Rheinflugzeugbau RW
3, powered by a 90 hp Porsche Super 90 converted to aircraft use and
type certificated by the FAA,...the airframe was too!

Dieter
Gliders Of Aspen

Dieter, I think I remember that one. Did it have the prop in a slot between
the fin and rudder?

Bill Daniels

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message ...
"soarski" wrote in message
om...


My first Motorglider I owned, was in 1966 a .....Rheinflugzeugbau RW
3, powered by a 90 hp Porsche Super 90 converted to aircraft use and
type certificated by the FAA,...the airframe was too!

Dieter
Gliders Of Aspen

Dieter, I think I remember that one. Did it have the prop in a slot between
the fin and rudder?

Bill Daniels



Yes Bill!

It had a long driveshaft from the mid engine, to the prop there, which
worked well. All Metal with fabric aft Fuselage, front fiberglass
shell. Wings, similar to the Blanik. Tricicle gear, electric. Big
flaps, no spoilers.
I flew it into Jeffco a couple of times.

Dieter

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

You can buy a lot of launches (especially ground launches) for $25K, or even
$10K.

When you sell your glider, you'll get paid for the motor, but not any
aerotows! The real cost isn't buying the motor, but the additional cost
of insuring the glider because it is worth more; the motor maintenance;
and whatever "opportunity cost" you put on having money tied up in the
motor.

Costs avoided are launches, aero or ground retrieves, and travel costs
to a more distant gliderport (auto costs, motel, food) versus the local
airport. The net cost to the pilot is very dependent on where and how
much they fly, and the type of flying they do. The net cost per year is
far smaller than the cost of the motor.


I know the reliability factor has improved, but many hours on the ground
were spent in maintenance and tuning and fettling for the early adopters. I
think today it's much better, but then today's reliability came at a price.

It is much better, and the fettling can be done when you can't fly, such
as in the winter, evenings, etc. For many of us, avoiding the long drive
to the gliderport, the long wait for a tow, the late night retrieve, all
add up to time saved compared to the unpowered glider.

Though the convenience factor is an interesting consideration, I personally
view soaring as a sociable pastime and prefer gathering together with the
faithful in its pursuit.

So do the powered sailplane pilots I know! You don't have to fly by
yourself to take advantage of the opportunities of a powered sailplane.
I've also found a great day of soaring is still a great day, even if no
one flies with me that day.


I could also scuba dive and sail alone, but it was more dangerous and lonely
than doing it in a gaggle.

Don't get me wrong, I looked long and hard at the DG-400 in the early
1980's. Self launching has its place, but given the choice, I'll take a
ground launch, aerotow, or self launch, in that order.

Ah, and there's the rub: for many of us that choice isn't there. No tows
during the week where I live, not even if I want to drive 150 miles.

A pilot like yourself, with readily available tows, might find a
sustainer sailplane gives you the freedom to explore soaring without the
hassle and cost of the self-launcher.

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA