Puchaz spin count 23 and counting

JJ,

The only point your original post made about spin avoidance
training was that the UK government required us to
do whereas in the land of the free etc you could do
what you damn well wanted. I pointed out that the government
did not require us to do anything, and the BGA (the
SSA equivalent) made those decisions in a fully deregulated
manner unlike you guys with the FAA all over you..
My original tetchy response was to a post that suggested
that we did not try and look objectively at every accident
and disseminate conclusions from that..

Now you've decided to address the substantive issue,
my view is as follows..

1. We do not 'routinely' spin students in during training.
Guess what, not all Puch spin accidents occurred during
instructor led spin exercises.

2. I've suggested there are some reservations about
the
specific use of the Puch amongst our instructor community


3. My understanding is that our accident rates overall
compare favourably with elsewhere in the world - this
was confirmed by our regional examiner at a CFI and
coach meeting on Saturday.

The problem with your analysis is that you focus on
accidents of commission, but not accidents of omission..
we don't know how many lives have been saved by spin
avoidance training, we do know how many have been lost.
What we do know is that the number of spin related
deaths has decreased. So I guess my answer is that
in my view the cure is better than the disease, although
we'd rather that noone died or was injured at any point
during their flying career..

In my opinion any comparison with the withdrawal of
spin training for US PPL's is invalid, power pilots
do not routinely fly at high angles of attack, and
tend not to use the rudder in most phases of flight.
They also tend not to make the number of outlandings
glider pilots do and tend not to have the same problems
to solve in the pattern..

I hope this answers your question on where I stand..

At 21:18 08 February 2004, Jj Sinclair wrote:
Mark,
We have had a pleasant little discussion of parachutes,
gun control and
socialized medicine, however you have failed to address
the core issue of the
British requirement to teach full blown spins. You
feel that those who survive
the spin training will be better for it. This position
fails to address the
fact that you Brits are screwing students and instructors
into the ground on a
fairly regular basis. Some of us feel your cure (spin
training) is worse than
the desease (spin accidents).
Your comments on the core issue?
JJ Sinclair

Mark wroteI pointed out that the government
did not require us to do anything, and the BGA (the
SSA equivalent) made those decisions in a fully deregulated
manner unlike you guys with the FAA all over you..

Mark,
The BGA IS the government, you just don't realize it. You MUST do what the BGA
says, if you wish to fly gliders in England. We don't have to do ANYTHING the
SSA tells us to do. I believe your government (BGA) is telling you to do 2 turn
spins in both directions, on initial check-out and every spring thereafter.

Most of our instructors, exercising their freedom of choice, teach spin
recognition and spin avoidance. We feel that ANY spin accident that accured
after the glider was intentionally put into a spin, can NOT justified.
JJ Sinclair

(JJ Sinclair) wrote in message ...

The BGA IS the government, you just don't realize it. You MUST do what the BGA
says, if you wish to fly gliders in England. We don't have to do ANYTHING the
SSA tells us to do.

And you are free to ignore the FAA completely, are you?

And, by the ay, I don't have to do what the BGA tells me. By and
large, I must if I want a BGA club to launch me, but if I can arrange
my own launch, and keep out of a few bits of airspace, I can legally
do more or less what I damn well want in a glider.

Ian

JJ,

Again you demonstrate your somewhat tenuous grasp of
the facts and geography.. There is nothing legally
stopping someone operating and flying gliders outside
of the BGA umbrella in the UK or even the bit called
england.

I'm happy to carry on listening to you talk out of
your arse by
email, but I suspect we're boring the rest of group..

Mark




At 15:12 09 February 2004, Jj Sinclair wrote:
Mark wroteI pointed out that the government
did not require us to do anything, and the BGA (the
SSA equivalent) made those decisions in a fully deregulated
manner unlike you guys with the FAA all over you..

Mark,
The BGA IS the government, you just don't realize it.
You MUST do what the BGA
says, if you wish to fly gliders in England. We don't
have to do ANYTHING the
SSA tells us to do. I believe your government (BGA)
is telling you to do 2 turn
spins in both directions, on initial check-out and
every spring thereafter.

Most of our instructors, exercising their freedom of
choice, teach spin
recognition and spin avoidance. We feel that ANY spin
accident that accured
after the glider was intentionally put into a spin,
can NOT justified.
JJ Sinclair

On 9 Feb 2004 09:17:28 GMT, Mark Stevens
wrote:

In my opinion any comparison with the withdrawal of
spin training for US PPL's is invalid, power pilots
do not routinely fly at high angles of attack, and
tend not to use the rudder in most phases of flight.
They also tend not to make the number of outlandings
glider pilots do and tend not to have the same problems
to solve in the pattern..


Do you fly power?
I got my power licence after 27 years gliding.
Where do you get the idea that power pilots don't use the rudder?
Rudder is used as required. In most power planes not much rudder is
required because of the design of the ailerons and the short wings but
it is still required if you want to keep the ball in the middle. Put a
well trained power pilot in a glider and he might take a couple of
minutes to figure it out but that is about all. He probably will take
a little longer to do good coordinated continuous steep turns but that
is only because glider pilots do many more than power pilots do.
Hopefully power pilots don't do many outlandings but I was impressed
by the amount of time spent during training on forced landings and
then you have a far worse problem than in a glider.

JJ might fill you in on use of rudder at high AOA in power planes like
the F4.

Mike Borgelt

On 2/9/04 3:32 PM, in article ,
"Mike Borgelt" wrote:

JJ might fill you in on use of rudder at high AOA
in power planes like the F4.

....and in the F-100, for example, where improper rudder use will take you
out of the fight in a hurry, and not in a good way. Rudder coordination is
certainly not something with which fighter pilots, and tail-dragger pilots,
are unfamiliar.


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Jack
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