Puchaz spin count 23 and counting

Guys...

We've had a lot of interesting conversations, some
on, and some off topic, for which I'm partly to blame,
although I would plead some provocation..

There are two central threads to this which are...

1. Is the Puchasz a safe aeroplane?

and

2. The assertion that BGA spin training routinely spins
in and kills instructors and their pupils..

A bunch of people have helpfully gone off and dug up
the accident reports and the conclusion we've come
to is that certainly since I've been gliding (a paltry,
but intense 14 years, including seven with a full category
rating, and DCFI at one of the UK's leading ab-initio
training centres) we don't appear to have been able
to dig up a single instance of a two seater spinning
in whilst performing the evolving BGA spin avoidance/training
curriculum.. There are, as Bill has said, a lot of
rumours about the recent accident, but no formal report
has yet been issued. When it is issued I have no doubt
we will take recognisance of the conclusions. The Usk
Puch accident made significant changes to the instructor
guidelines for spin training, although this was instructor
on instructor training.

I don't have enough experience in the Puchasz to determine
whether it bites at infrequent intervals, so I won't
comment on the first issue..

However, pertinent to the second point I do know of
one person at my club who has stated that they were
saved from piling in by the spin training they received.

Now we have the facts to hand, although I don't expect
people to back off, I would ask that people who have
made comments on the way we train in the UK go back
and examine their posts in this light.

Mark








At 15:24 11 February 2004, Pete Zeugma wrote:
At 14:06 11 February 2004, Chris Ocallaghan wrote:

ive only been reading your posts for a couple of weeks
and ive already worked out you dont know squat and
infact you are actually a threat to student/low time
glider pilots lives.

No Bill, I don't know a goddam thing.

it shows frequently.

I happened on this newsgroup
several years ago and determined it was so threadbare
that I could
post without any knowledge of the subject at all and
blend right in.

i actually wonder if you post with several different
identities.

Over the months and years, I became bolder. I read
a few books. I'm an
avid reader, and I don't really care what... Knauff,
Piggot, Welch,
Reichmann, Langeweische, et al. I now feel like I know
more about the
sport than most of the people who post to this group.


pity it does not sink in, but then you miss the whole
practical bit dont you! Reichmann is a case in point.

I guess you
could say I've become a white paper expert.

is that toilet paper?

And frankly, from the
outside looking in, this is about the dumbest exercise
I've ever seen
wrapped in the trappings of reasoned cause and effect.

so in all your reading and the huge amount of knowledge
youve gained from it, you have gained a level of understanding
normaly achieved through practical experience, of just
how sudden a glider like a puch can enter into a spin?
some how I doubt that very much.


Organizations get things wrong. My gliding association,
right or
wrong, may it always be right rings a little hollow.

actually the bga have come to the position the instructors
manual currently holds over the last 70 odd years.
its an evolving process.

Mark Stevens wrote:

There are two central threads to this which are...

1. Is the Puchasz a safe aeroplane?

and

2. The assertion that BGA spin training routinely spins
in and kills instructors and their pupils..

I can't answer either. I will say that I personally
wouldn't consider initiating a spin entry at 800 ft, and I don't
know anyone who would.

That said, there are those in this country with aerobatic
waivers for very low aerobatics. Perhaps the UK standards
for CFI's who do 800 ft spin entries are the
equivalent...I don't know so I can't make judgements
about whether BGA practices are safe...

I still wonder why one wouldn't just do it 800 ft above
a cloud deck instead...