Landout Laws

I had the opportunity to visit Seminole for the first time a few weeks ago -
and had a very good time. Ingrid and Knut made me feel very welcome, and it
was also a very welcome break from the miserable PA winter. I look forward
to returning often.

Every gliderport seems to have a few known fields where the owners are
unfriendly. Invariably it seems to be the result of the owner having been
treated poorly at some time in the past (even if no damage was done, just
not respecting the fact that you are a guest on their land and asking
permission to do anything is at the very least rude and disrespectful of
their ownership rights).

During my stay at Seminole, I had the opportunity to meet a number of
farmers/landowners :-/ One story that emerged consistently from them is
having been treated poorly by the hang-glider crowd (I understand that there
is quite a lot of hang-glider activity near Seminole). This ran the gamut
from rudeness to minor property damage to broken fences and loose livestock.
No one sees a difference between a hang glider and a sailplane.

I don't know that this problem reflects the current behavior of the
hang-glider crowd - and once the damage is done it doesn't matter. But be
aware that you may inherit the sins not only of your sibling but also of
your distant cousin when you land out, and need to repair relations you
didn't break. Also remember when flying in a new location to get as part of
your field check any info on the known problem landowners.
--
John Godfrey (QT)
SSA State Governor PA Region 3

"Charles Petersen" wrote in message
...
We had two landouts at Seminole yesterday, both in the same field, - a
pasture with cattle and a locked gate. One of the pilots visited a nearby
farmhouse, and spoke with the wife of the property owner asking permission
to enter and a key. She was very nice and called her son. He agreed to
call back on the pilots cell phone. The Sheriff was also called and did
not
call back. An hour later, with both trailers at the gate, we called the
Sheriff again and advised that we intended to cut a link in the chain, and
replace it with a padlock when we left, and mail the key to the owner.
This
would leave his field secure, and there was no damage. The Sheriff's
office
made it clear they were not giving permission, and the retrieve crew made
it
clear they were not asking for permission, merely advising the Sheriff of
their intentions, citing the approaching sunset and $220,000 of aircraft
in
a field with cattle. A bolt cutter gave entry, and we commenced
derigging,
leaving our most charming crew member at the gate. Both the son of the
owner and the Sheriff arrived. The son was extremely upset, insisting
that
charges be laid. The Sheriff, seemingly somewhat reluctantly,
fingerprinted
both pilots and wrote up a proposal for charges, which he said would be
presented to the public attorney to decide whether to proceed. Nothing
further has been heard, and we hope / believe nothing further will be
heard.

My question is: - what is the law governing a landout on private property?
What are the rights of the pilot and of the property owner? Where are
these
rights codified? The Sheriff said if we had done the same thing after he
arrived, he would not have laid charges. He did not charge the retrieve
crew with breaking and entering or trespassing. What about the crew
situation?

BTW, all concerned did act as 'ambassadors of the sport', but the son was
implacable.

I've been flying something for 34 years. That has included powered,
gliders, ultralights, paragliders and hang gliders. I would say that
assigning the blame for problems with landowners solely to the pilot of
whatever type of aircraft is involved is inappropriate without knowing the
circumstances involved in each case.

I have over 50 outlandings in gliders and several hundred in hang gliders.
I have been nothing but humble and gracious with landowners but have had a
few cases of irrate people no matter what I did or say to calm them down. I
have flown at Wallaby (one of the hang glider operations near Seminole) and
have visited, but not flown at Seminole. There are jerks in every facet of
aviation and in my experience no one group can say that they are better
ambassadors than another.

By virtue of the lesser performance of hang gliders they land out much more
often than sailplanes and that may be one reason that some landowners simply
get tired of seeing them especially those on the downwind side of the towing
operations.

The initial poster did the best he could and I would have probably have done
the same. There are just going to be some days that the bear gets you.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

TRY THIS IT WORKED FOR ME AND IS A FACT.
" I'm sorry you are upset and feel the way you do Mr. Farmer. However, I did
not elect or desire to make an emergency landing on your property. This
aircraft is licensed and operated in accordance with the rules, regulations,
and laws of the U S Goverment and its Dept. of Federal Aviation Adm. See that
registration number on the tail. If you do not wish to permit me to remove this
aircraft from your property, then so be it. I must, however, by Federal law
notify the the FAA that an aircraft incident has occured on your property. In
turn they will conduct an investigation within 24 to 48 hours of the incident
as well as you and your background and surrounding circunstances. I dont think
you want to deal with that, but if you do then so be it. Or, you can permit and
assist me in getting this aircraft off your property right NOW."

"PENN2P" wrote in message
...
TRY THIS IT WORKED FOR ME AND IS A FACT.
" I'm sorry you are upset and feel the way you do Mr. Farmer. However, I
did
not elect or desire to make an emergency landing on your property.
BIG SNIP//////


The only problem with this line of thinking is that the landing wasn't
an emergency. Off field landings, while not terribly common, are not
technically emergencies. They are unplanned events, but they do not
carry the imminent risk of injury, loss of life or the other things
emergencies
use for definition. In fact, the use of trailers and the use of a recovery
crew
seem to indicate that it is an expected outcome. I wouldn't go there
if I didn't need to.

Scott.

On 2/18/04 6:38 PM, in article ,
"plasticguy" wrote:

Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.

Cite?

There is plenty in soaring to be technical about, but aren't we really
dealing here with a state of mind?


They are unplanned events...

They are premeditated. They should be, and are, planned-for. They are not
necessarily intended.


...they do not carry the imminent risk of injury, loss of life or
the other things emergencies use for definition.

The closer you get to landing the more of an emergency a landout is. It is
not necessary in any other type of aviation activity with which I am
familiar to see injury or loss of life as imminent before one is encouraged
to declare an emergency. The point of categorizing a particular situation as
an emergency is most often as a proactive measure in order to avoid
imminence. Perhaps in contradiction of any unexamined expectations, I think
it is reasonable to say that a landout by a ranked competitor in a fast,
heavy, many-meter ship may be as dangerous, and as much an emergency, as an
A-Badger struggling into the same field in a 2-33.


...the use of trailers and the use of a recovery crew
seem to indicate that it is an expected outcome.

....to the same extent that the provision of fire fighting equipment and
emergency medical teams at airline airports indicate that there is an
expectation they will be needed. The presence of mechanics with tools at
most airports is an indication that mechanical failures will occur. That
does not bar many types of failures from being considered emergency
conditions.


I wouldn't go there if I didn't need to.

With that I can agree wholeheartedly. Describing the average landout as an
emergency procedure might not be healthy for the sport, neither in a public
relations sense, in a regulatory sense, nor in the cause of recruiting new
participants.

Nonetheless, landouts are the closest thing I know of in soaring to the
number and variety of emergencies in other realms of aviation of which I
have first hand knowledge.

One has limited time, limited resources, and a more or less rapidly closing
window of opportunity for a successful outcome. Everywhere else in aviation,
that is enough to encourage crew members to assume an emergency condition
mindset, whether in order to avail themselves of assistance or just to
diminish the threat to themselves and others.

If the idea of being in an emergency condition from the time we leave for
the airport until the time we put on our slippers and light our pipes at the
end of the day is somewhat unsettling, then that may indicate a certain lack
of acceptance of the realities.

In soaring there are only three, after all. ;



Jack

On 2/18/04 6:38 PM, in article ,
"plasticguy" wrote:

Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.

Hmm...
What _do_ you call it when an aircraft loses power and has to land?

Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.

Hmm...
What _do_ you call it when an aircraft loses power and has to land?


I got a couple email responses to this advising me that the discussion was
about sailplanes, not powered planes.

The words were chosen to introduce the argument that there's no difference
between a powered airplane that loses power and a sailplane that loses
power, other than the fact that one is externally powered and the other
internally powered and that a well maintained engine may be more predictable
than thermals, ridge lift and wave.

So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is forced
to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is unable to
connect to its source of power and is forced to land? Shouldn't those on
the ground treat them the same?

FWIW, I've not had a bad experience with a landowner.
My favorite was last summer. I landed out on a ranch strip that hadn't seen
an aircraft in a decade. One of the ranch hands--straight out of central
casting--said,
"I saw you circling with those buzzards pretty low over the auction pen."
"Yeah, sailplanes use the same lift as soaring birds do" said I.
"Looks like they're a little better at it" said he.
"Yeah, they are" I said shaking my head and laughing.

Brent


"303pilot" brentUNDERSCOREsullivanATbmcDOTcom wrote in message
...

On 2/18/04 6:38 PM, in article ,
"plasticguy" wrote:

Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.

Hmm...
What _do_ you call it when an aircraft loses power and has to land?

303pilot wrote:

So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is forced
to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is unable to
connect to its source of power and is forced to land?

Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your plan B.

Stefan

At 17:54 20 February 2004, 303pilot wrote:

On 2/18/04 6:38 PM, in article
,
'plasticguy' wrote:

Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.

Hmm...
What _do_ you call it when an aircraft loses power
and has to land?


My SEL instructor taught me to use the word 'precautionary,'
because, as he said, 'Once the word emergency is used,
you have to fill out papers.'

Nyal Williams wrote:

My SEL instructor taught me to use the word 'precautionary,'
because, as he said, 'Once the word emergency is used,
you have to fill out papers.'

Every now and then I read, mainly from American pilots: Don't do this or
that, because if you do, you will have to fill out papers. Which rises
the question: How did they manage to pass their written if they
obviously cannot read and write? Or, if I'm wrong and they can, what's
the problem?

Stefan