Russia Sailplanes website

sounds like a PW-5 is a better offer now..

BT

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Tim Mara wrote:
I was told they have given up offering the Russia Gliders....
I don't know if anyone will pick this up again.
tim

"Willie" wrote in message
m...

I am in the market for a sailplane and have been looking at
PW 5s and Russia AC 4s. I noticed the Russia Sailplanes site has been
inaccessable for a few weeks. Anyone know why?

Go to www.motorglider.org, and use the links section to join the Russia
AC4/5 newsgroup. You can ask questions there, but basically Tim is right
about the website. The compamy web site is available, but you'll need to
use a translation tool (Google, Alta Vista) to read it in "English",
since it is in Russian.

--
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Rumor is there will be a new US distributor announced this year. If
you look at the Aviastroitel website (in Russian), you see many new
models being developed. Since the US was the largest market, clearly
these new models will likely be made available in the US. Which
indicates the rumors of the new US distributor might actually come
true.

Having flown both the PW5 and the Russia, I would say the PW5 is a bit
fancier in the cockpit (small stick like the expensive birds, for
example), but that is all. The Russia has much better control harmony
and seems a lot tougher overall. The rudder coordination take a while
to figure out in the PW5. Assembly of the Russia is way better
(really is a 10 minute, one person job), and glide performance with
the retract gear is much better than the fixed gear PW5. The only
negative with the Russia is it is a little pitch sensitive, requiring
re-adjusting attitude with spoiler changes (that is, more spoilers
cause the plane to slow down). Takes a bit of practice to smooth out
your landing if you transition directly from a more stable bird like
the 2-33.

The Russia does have a very bad tailwheel that just does not hold air.
Expect to spend around $130 to replace the Russian tailwheel with a
Tost tailwheel. Some owners report leaky mainwheels, but nothing
beyond having to add air every other month. Cheap fixes ($8)
involving Slime are available for the mainwheel.

Availability of used aircraft for sale seems a good indicator of how
well owners like living with a particular airplane. While you can
find a number of the self-launch AC5M Russians for sale (like due to
the 400-450 fpm climb rate from the 28 hp engine....I think this might
have disappointed a few owners), not many of the glider AC4 are for
sale. Seems like a satisfied group.

John

(John) wrote in message . com...
Rumor is there will be a new US distributor announced this year.

Thanks for the information. I have been considering a used ship in the
20 -25 thousand range. I really like the look of the Russia, it
reminds
me of a Phoebus, but without the heavy wings. I am also watching the
Sparrowhawk and Apis, but since they are so new, I don't think I will
find a used one for awhile.

The PW5 seems to be a good fit for me in terms of performance, but I
have heard and read nothing but negative comments from other
sailplane pilots. Is it really a bad ship? It seems to have the
performance
that I'm looking for (33 to 1) or better.

I am in no great hurry and can afford to wait for a deal, so I will
keep my eyes open and watch for the new Russia distributor.

Thanks again,
Willie

I'm sure I won't be the first to suggest it....but if you are looking for a
"good" ship in the 20-25K range there will be a lot of "really good" (some
will even be far cheaper) Libelle's, Hornets, Mosquito's, LS1f's, LS3's
Jantar's and so on and even some later gliders like ASW19's, DG300's and
now even some LS4's ect that will be in or near your price range just to
name a few .....many will even be certified with Standard airworthiness....
performance isn't everything, but all of these will certainly out-perform
your wish-list and give you solid, record proven reliability and known
habits....plus since many of these have already depreciated (and
appreciated) you'll have some known value and resale.....plus plus plus.....
tim

"Willie" wrote in message
m...
(John) wrote in message
. com...
Rumor is there will be a new US distributor announced this year.

Thanks for the information. I have been considering a used ship in the
20 -25 thousand range. I really like the look of the Russia, it
reminds
me of a Phoebus, but without the heavy wings. I am also watching the
Sparrowhawk and Apis, but since they are so new, I don't think I will
find a used one for awhile.

The PW5 seems to be a good fit for me in terms of performance, but I
have heard and read nothing but negative comments from other
sailplane pilots. Is it really a bad ship? It seems to have the
performance
that I'm looking for (33 to 1) or better.

I am in no great hurry and can afford to wait for a deal, so I will
keep my eyes open and watch for the new Russia distributor.

Thanks again,
Willie

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:58:17 -0500, "Tim Mara"
wrote:

I'm sure I won't be the first to suggest it....but if you are looking for a
"good" ship in the 20-25K range there will be a lot of "really good" (some
will even be far cheaper) Libelle's, Hornets, Mosquito's, LS1f's, LS3's
Jantar's and so on and even some later gliders like ASW19's, DG300's and
now even some LS4's ect that will be in or near your price range just to
name a few .....many will even be certified with Standard airworthiness....
performance isn't everything, but all of these will certainly out-perform
your wish-list and give you solid, record proven reliability and known
habits....plus since many of these have already depreciated (and
appreciated) you'll have some known value and resale.....plus plus plus.....
tim

First, a word in defense of the PW-5. It is quite pleasant to fly
judging from one flight. Controls are light and its responsive. The
only vice I was warned about before flying it is a tendency to PIO on
aero-tow take off if you let it pop up and are then over-enthusiastic
in correcting. I didn't have a problem - got it running on the main
wheel with the nose a little raised and it just flew off. If you can
fly a modern glass two seater (ASK-21 or G103) you'd have no problem
with it. OTOH the build quality of the early ones is a bit scruffy and
the short wheelbase could well make for a choppy roll-out on an uneven
field.

Having said that I'd certainly echo Tim's advice. I made my first
Libelle flight an hour or so after flying the PW-5 and it was a
delight to fly as well as having a lot more performance than the PW-5.
Again, I was warned about poor brakes, but didn't find them a problem
though they are weaker than you find on, say, a Pegase or Discus. They
sell for $US16K -$US18K with trailer here and have to represent good
value if you can get a nice one.

Me? I'm spoilt by an enjoyable two seasons on a Pegase and so am
prepared to pay for at least an ASW-19 level of performance.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

Willie wrote:

The PW5 seems to be a good fit for me in terms of performance, but I
have heard and read nothing but negative comments from other
sailplane pilots. Is it really a bad ship? It seems to have the
performance that I'm looking for (33 to 1) or better.

It isn't a bad ship. The negative comments are basically 1) "it's ugly",
and 2) "you can buy a used glider with more performance for less money".

The #1 is personal taste. #2 is correct, but not decisive. If you want a
new glider instead of a much older one, or want to fly in the World
Class, then the PW5 is worth considering. There are groups much more
enthused about the PW5 than some the posters here; for example, try

http://www.wcsa.org/ [World Class Soaring Association]

I think the New Zealanders like them too. I had two nice flights in PW5s
when I was down there a few years ago.
--
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Eric's comment is correct, and could do with some expansion.

From personal experience, owning a 30+ year old glass ship is something of a
never ending tinkering excercise.
The seals are rotten, and the canopy doesnt fit like the designer intended, and
the hinges are worn (still legal but I'd like to replace them), and the gell
coat is dull (got to get better with the polish, or maybe that refinish is due)
and then you have to get some regulated part worked on, like - your oxygen
cylinder tested and there is no ISO documentation.

Please note that this is with what many consider to be a "mint" condition 1971
model Schempp-hirth glider. A neglected one, or a rare and poorly supported one
is going to be a lot of work...

I happen to enjoy working on the toy as much as flying her, but if you want a
"get in and fly" experience a new glider will inevitably be less work.

For us it is academic, no PW5s in the country.


Eric Greenwell wrote:
Willie wrote:

The PW5 seems to be a good fit for me in terms of performance, but I
have heard and read nothing but negative comments from other
sailplane pilots. Is it really a bad ship? It seems to have the
performance that I'm looking for (33 to 1) or better.


It isn't a bad ship. The negative comments are basically 1) "it's ugly",
and 2) "you can buy a used glider with more performance for less money".

The #1 is personal taste. #2 is correct, but not decisive. If you want a
new glider instead of a much older one, or want to fly in the World
Class, then the PW5 is worth considering. There are groups much more
enthused about the PW5 than some the posters here; for example, try

http://www.wcsa.org/ [World Class Soaring Association]

I think the New Zealanders like them too. I had two nice flights in PW5s
when I was down there a few years ago.

In article ,
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Willie wrote:

It isn't a bad ship. The negative comments are basically 1) "it's ugly",
and 2) "you can buy a used glider with more performance for less money".

The #1 is personal taste. #2 is correct, but not decisive. If you want a

1. You can't see if it's ugly from the inside. Besides, you're
going to wear that stupid fishing hat and take pictures your
wife will see forever, and you're worried about what the
GLIDER looks like?

2. You can buy a used glider with heavier wings that has
instant maintenance needs for less money. You have all those
hours to work on the glider, but you can't do another
two turns in each thermal? :P

The biggest advantages of the Russia and PW-5 is that they are
small and light and new. This is very convenient.
I personally wouldn't give up this kind of
convenience and ease of use for better performance
in a glider I was going to own, but there are those
who don't mind something bigger, heavier, that needs more
frequent TLC. Which type are you?

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:4034d0ed$1@darkstar...

1. You can't see if it's ugly from the inside. Besides, you're
going to wear that stupid fishing hat and take pictures your
wife will see forever, and you're worried about what the
GLIDER looks like?

No, but you can see what it looks like everytime to walk up to it, rig
it, wash it, tie it down. To some people beauty is very important.
And for most people, all things being equal, beautiful (or "more
normal") gets the nod.

2. You can buy a used glider with heavier wings that has
instant maintenance needs for less money. You have all those
hours to work on the glider, but you can't do another
two turns in each thermal? :P

What instant maintenance? Gliders are not like power planes in this
respect. Every new glider I've seen has needed more work to get it
set up and working correctly than the vast majority of used gliders.
You can buy a fully set-up used glider and be flying as soon as you
hand over the check. Good luck doing that with any new glider, from
PW-5s to Nimbus 4s! But as you say, for some new is important, just
like beauty for others. Oh, and you can do all the extra turns you
want, but if you can't keep up with your friends or get back...

The biggest advantages of the Russia and PW-5 is that they are
small and light and new. This is very convenient.
I personally wouldn't give up this kind of
convenience and ease of use for better performance
in a glider I was going to own, but there are those
who don't mind something bigger, heavier, that needs more
frequent TLC. Which type are you?

So what if they are small and light? How much time do you spend
rigging? If you really mind lifting a few more pounds for a couple of
minutes, then by all means get a PW-5 (or Russia, or Apis, etc..).
But then you should also not mind the 25% lower performance. Of
course you could get a one-man rig and not worry about the weight at
all. Ironically, we all seem to be paying money to go the gym to work
out... And all that extra weight (meaning wingspan, and wingloading,
etc.) sure is nice to have on a booming day in the desert.

Some personal observations: I know 4 pilots out here in Arizona who
have owned PW-5s; 3 sold them after a couple of seasons and moved up
to 15m ships (304CZ, ASW-20, and Pik-20). The 4th flew his PW-5
primarily to compete and set records, since he also had an LS8 at the
time, since replaced by an ASH-26, he is hardly the typical PW-5 owner
(actually I don't know if he still has it). There is one PW-5 still
based at Turf where I fly, but it's owner bought a motorglider and I
havn't seen the PW fly in a while (pity, since I've been wanting to
try it out before it gets sold!).

Maybe it's just an Arizona thing, but the PW just doesn't seem to hack
it out here - the guys who had them (both experienced and new glider
pilots) got tired of flying by themselves, watching all the standard
and 15m ships disappear in the distance. And that is not my opinion,
it's what they said when asked why they sold their PW-5s.

This isn't a slam of the PW-5, which from all accounts is a nice
little glider to fly, and is popular with clubs. But anyone thinking
of buying one - especially new - instead of flying one in a club,
needs to think hard about what they want to do with it. I actually
tried to get our club to buy one, so I could race it in the World
Class - no luck.

Just my opinion, worth every penny you paid for it.

Kirk

Kirk Stant wrote:
(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:4034d0ed$1@darkstar...


The biggest advantages of the Russia and PW-5 is that they are
small and light and new. This is very convenient.

So what if they are small and light? How much time do you spend
rigging? If you really mind lifting a few more pounds for a couple of
minutes, then by all means get a PW-5 (or Russia, or Apis, etc..).

Well, I've also pushed the PW-5 singlehanded about 5 miles total.
I've NEVER pushed the L-13 or 2-33 singlehanded. When
I land out on a runway, it's nice to be able to push the
glider to a certain spot off the runway afterwards, on my own.
The 1-26 was great for this too.

A trailer+glider that requires a V8 truck to tow is different
from one I can tow with a 6 cylinder SUV. The weight is there,
and has other implications than just rigging...

Ironically, we all seem to be paying money to go the gym to work
out...

Not me, brother. I'm already in shape. The shape I've chosen
is an oval...

\
{-()=[
/


Some personal observations: I know 4 pilots out here in Arizona who
have owned PW-5s; 3 sold them after a couple of seasons and moved up
to 15m ships (304CZ, ASW-20, and Pik-20). The 4th flew his PW-5
primarily to compete and set records, since he also had an LS8 at the
time, since replaced by an ASH-26, he is hardly the typical PW-5 owner
(actually I don't know if he still has it). There is one PW-5 still
based at Turf where I fly, but it's owner bought a motorglider and I
havn't seen the PW fly in a while (pity, since I've been wanting to
try it out before it gets sold!).

It sounds like the pilots that got a coupla seasons and the
record setter got some great use. These gliders are entry level,
and I'd expect someone to move up later. I thought the
poster was looking for a first time glider (kinda like
a Cezzna 172.) The PIK-20 with a few groundloops and the
ASW-20 with quite a bit of complexity are excellent second gliders.

I've seen a few "used" gliders. Gelcoats, extra weight from repairs,
etc. aren't uncommon, and if you get something really mint,
the $$$$$$ really go upupupup...


This isn't a slam of the PW-5, which from all accounts is a nice
little glider to fly, and is popular with clubs. But anyone thinking
of buying one - especially new - instead of flying one in a club,
needs to think hard about what they want to do with it. I actually
tried to get our club to buy one, so I could race it in the World
Class - no luck.

Agreed, these are good club gliders and entry level first
gliders. If someone has quite a bit more experience, or knows
for sure they will stick with the sport like us fanatics, something
sexier may be warranted. After all, I haven't seen a
World class in the regionals anywhere near where I fly...


Just my opinion, worth every penny you paid for it.

Kirk