Russia Sailplanes website

Willie wrote:

The PW5 seems to be a good fit for me in terms of performance, but I
have heard and read nothing but negative comments from other
sailplane pilots. Is it really a bad ship? It seems to have the
performance that I'm looking for (33 to 1) or better.

It isn't a bad ship. The negative comments are basically 1) "it's ugly",
and 2) "you can buy a used glider with more performance for less money".

The #1 is personal taste. #2 is correct, but not decisive. If you want a
new glider instead of a much older one, or want to fly in the World
Class, then the PW5 is worth considering. There are groups much more
enthused about the PW5 than some the posters here; for example, try

http://www.wcsa.org/ [World Class Soaring Association]

I think the New Zealanders like them too. I had two nice flights in PW5s
when I was down there a few years ago.
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Eric's comment is correct, and could do with some expansion.

From personal experience, owning a 30+ year old glass ship is something of a
never ending tinkering excercise.
The seals are rotten, and the canopy doesnt fit like the designer intended, and
the hinges are worn (still legal but I'd like to replace them), and the gell
coat is dull (got to get better with the polish, or maybe that refinish is due)
and then you have to get some regulated part worked on, like - your oxygen
cylinder tested and there is no ISO documentation.

Please note that this is with what many consider to be a "mint" condition 1971
model Schempp-hirth glider. A neglected one, or a rare and poorly supported one
is going to be a lot of work...

I happen to enjoy working on the toy as much as flying her, but if you want a
"get in and fly" experience a new glider will inevitably be less work.

For us it is academic, no PW5s in the country.


Eric Greenwell wrote:
Willie wrote:

The PW5 seems to be a good fit for me in terms of performance, but I
have heard and read nothing but negative comments from other
sailplane pilots. Is it really a bad ship? It seems to have the
performance that I'm looking for (33 to 1) or better.


It isn't a bad ship. The negative comments are basically 1) "it's ugly",
and 2) "you can buy a used glider with more performance for less money".

The #1 is personal taste. #2 is correct, but not decisive. If you want a
new glider instead of a much older one, or want to fly in the World
Class, then the PW5 is worth considering. There are groups much more
enthused about the PW5 than some the posters here; for example, try

http://www.wcsa.org/ [World Class Soaring Association]

I think the New Zealanders like them too. I had two nice flights in PW5s
when I was down there a few years ago.

In article ,
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Willie wrote:

It isn't a bad ship. The negative comments are basically 1) "it's ugly",
and 2) "you can buy a used glider with more performance for less money".

The #1 is personal taste. #2 is correct, but not decisive. If you want a

1. You can't see if it's ugly from the inside. Besides, you're
going to wear that stupid fishing hat and take pictures your
wife will see forever, and you're worried about what the
GLIDER looks like?

2. You can buy a used glider with heavier wings that has
instant maintenance needs for less money. You have all those
hours to work on the glider, but you can't do another
two turns in each thermal? :P

The biggest advantages of the Russia and PW-5 is that they are
small and light and new. This is very convenient.
I personally wouldn't give up this kind of
convenience and ease of use for better performance
in a glider I was going to own, but there are those
who don't mind something bigger, heavier, that needs more
frequent TLC. Which type are you?

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:4034d0ed$1@darkstar...

1. You can't see if it's ugly from the inside. Besides, you're
going to wear that stupid fishing hat and take pictures your
wife will see forever, and you're worried about what the
GLIDER looks like?

No, but you can see what it looks like everytime to walk up to it, rig
it, wash it, tie it down. To some people beauty is very important.
And for most people, all things being equal, beautiful (or "more
normal") gets the nod.

2. You can buy a used glider with heavier wings that has
instant maintenance needs for less money. You have all those
hours to work on the glider, but you can't do another
two turns in each thermal? :P

What instant maintenance? Gliders are not like power planes in this
respect. Every new glider I've seen has needed more work to get it
set up and working correctly than the vast majority of used gliders.
You can buy a fully set-up used glider and be flying as soon as you
hand over the check. Good luck doing that with any new glider, from
PW-5s to Nimbus 4s! But as you say, for some new is important, just
like beauty for others. Oh, and you can do all the extra turns you
want, but if you can't keep up with your friends or get back...

The biggest advantages of the Russia and PW-5 is that they are
small and light and new. This is very convenient.
I personally wouldn't give up this kind of
convenience and ease of use for better performance
in a glider I was going to own, but there are those
who don't mind something bigger, heavier, that needs more
frequent TLC. Which type are you?

So what if they are small and light? How much time do you spend
rigging? If you really mind lifting a few more pounds for a couple of
minutes, then by all means get a PW-5 (or Russia, or Apis, etc..).
But then you should also not mind the 25% lower performance. Of
course you could get a one-man rig and not worry about the weight at
all. Ironically, we all seem to be paying money to go the gym to work
out... And all that extra weight (meaning wingspan, and wingloading,
etc.) sure is nice to have on a booming day in the desert.

Some personal observations: I know 4 pilots out here in Arizona who
have owned PW-5s; 3 sold them after a couple of seasons and moved up
to 15m ships (304CZ, ASW-20, and Pik-20). The 4th flew his PW-5
primarily to compete and set records, since he also had an LS8 at the
time, since replaced by an ASH-26, he is hardly the typical PW-5 owner
(actually I don't know if he still has it). There is one PW-5 still
based at Turf where I fly, but it's owner bought a motorglider and I
havn't seen the PW fly in a while (pity, since I've been wanting to
try it out before it gets sold!).

Maybe it's just an Arizona thing, but the PW just doesn't seem to hack
it out here - the guys who had them (both experienced and new glider
pilots) got tired of flying by themselves, watching all the standard
and 15m ships disappear in the distance. And that is not my opinion,
it's what they said when asked why they sold their PW-5s.

This isn't a slam of the PW-5, which from all accounts is a nice
little glider to fly, and is popular with clubs. But anyone thinking
of buying one - especially new - instead of flying one in a club,
needs to think hard about what they want to do with it. I actually
tried to get our club to buy one, so I could race it in the World
Class - no luck.

Just my opinion, worth every penny you paid for it.

Kirk

Kirk Stant wrote:
(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:4034d0ed$1@darkstar...


The biggest advantages of the Russia and PW-5 is that they are
small and light and new. This is very convenient.

So what if they are small and light? How much time do you spend
rigging? If you really mind lifting a few more pounds for a couple of
minutes, then by all means get a PW-5 (or Russia, or Apis, etc..).

Well, I've also pushed the PW-5 singlehanded about 5 miles total.
I've NEVER pushed the L-13 or 2-33 singlehanded. When
I land out on a runway, it's nice to be able to push the
glider to a certain spot off the runway afterwards, on my own.
The 1-26 was great for this too.

A trailer+glider that requires a V8 truck to tow is different
from one I can tow with a 6 cylinder SUV. The weight is there,
and has other implications than just rigging...

Ironically, we all seem to be paying money to go the gym to work
out...

Not me, brother. I'm already in shape. The shape I've chosen
is an oval...

\
{-()=[
/


Some personal observations: I know 4 pilots out here in Arizona who
have owned PW-5s; 3 sold them after a couple of seasons and moved up
to 15m ships (304CZ, ASW-20, and Pik-20). The 4th flew his PW-5
primarily to compete and set records, since he also had an LS8 at the
time, since replaced by an ASH-26, he is hardly the typical PW-5 owner
(actually I don't know if he still has it). There is one PW-5 still
based at Turf where I fly, but it's owner bought a motorglider and I
havn't seen the PW fly in a while (pity, since I've been wanting to
try it out before it gets sold!).

It sounds like the pilots that got a coupla seasons and the
record setter got some great use. These gliders are entry level,
and I'd expect someone to move up later. I thought the
poster was looking for a first time glider (kinda like
a Cezzna 172.) The PIK-20 with a few groundloops and the
ASW-20 with quite a bit of complexity are excellent second gliders.

I've seen a few "used" gliders. Gelcoats, extra weight from repairs,
etc. aren't uncommon, and if you get something really mint,
the $$$$$$ really go upupupup...


This isn't a slam of the PW-5, which from all accounts is a nice
little glider to fly, and is popular with clubs. But anyone thinking
of buying one - especially new - instead of flying one in a club,
needs to think hard about what they want to do with it. I actually
tried to get our club to buy one, so I could race it in the World
Class - no luck.

Agreed, these are good club gliders and entry level first
gliders. If someone has quite a bit more experience, or knows
for sure they will stick with the sport like us fanatics, something
sexier may be warranted. After all, I haven't seen a
World class in the regionals anywhere near where I fly...


Just my opinion, worth every penny you paid for it.

Kirk

Hei!

Mark James Boyd wrote:

A trailer+glider that requires a V8 truck to tow is different
from one I can tow with a 6 cylinder SUV. The weight is there,
and has other implications than just rigging...

I used to tow our LS-3a with a Toyota Corolla with 1.6l engine without
any problems at all. Now I have Carina E with a 2.0l engine for more
comfort though; it tows two-seaters like the ASK-21 and Janus just fine,
and I wouldn't expect an open-class glider to pose any difficulties. So
I do wonder what kind of gliders would require a V8 truck.

[...], these are good club gliders and entry level first
gliders. If someone has quite a bit more experience, or knows
for sure they will stick with the sport like us fanatics, something
sexier may be warranted.

I don't see any reason why someone would need to own an "entry level"
glider privately; you can fly those in your club. When the need for
your own glider arrives you are no longer a beginner, and you are better
off with a used LS-3, ASW-20 or something similar.

Christian 8-)

Christian Husvik wrote:
Hei!

Mark James Boyd wrote:

A trailer+glider that requires a V8 truck to tow is different
from one I can tow with a 6 cylinder SUV. The weight is there,
and has other implications than just rigging...

I used to tow our LS-3a with a Toyota Corolla with 1.6l engine without
any problems at all. Now I have Carina E with a 2.0l engine for more
comfort though; it tows two-seaters like the ASK-21 and Janus just fine,
and I wouldn't expect an open-class glider to pose any difficulties. So
I do wonder what kind of gliders would require a V8 truck.

Try towing something heavy uphill, both ways, in the snow. 3 percent or
better grade. Sure sure, on the flat roads and beaches of Santa
Cruz I'd tow a catamaran, but a heavy trailer of ski gear up
to Tahoe with four people seemed to like a nice big engine...

If your path is flat enough, and acceleration is no issue, you
can tow your 600# glider with a bicycle, right?


[...], these are good club gliders and entry level first
gliders. If someone has quite a bit more experience, or knows
for sure they will stick with the sport like us fanatics, something
sexier may be warranted.

I don't see any reason why someone would need to own an "entry level"
glider privately; you can fly those in your club. When the need for
your own glider arrives you are no longer a beginner, and you are better
off with a used LS-3, ASW-20 or something similar.

I think there are those who don't want a "club" glider
because it may be too heavily scheduled and they want something they don't
have to compete for time with. This and going to remote gliding
spots without getting "permission." This is the case for my club
PW-5 and is a little bit of a hassle.

But if the person is no longer a beginner, then sure, they're
gonna want more performance, and if they don't mind the
required "extras" then yep, get something faster...



Christian 8-)

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:4035b4c5$1@darkstar...

A trailer+glider that requires a V8 truck to tow is different
from one I can tow with a 6 cylinder SUV. The weight is there,
and has other implications than just rigging...


WTF? I've owned two 600-lb 15m gliders, and I've never used more than
4 cylinders to tow them.

Perhaps you forgot to release the parking brake?

In article ,
Liam Finley wrote:
(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:4035b4c5$1@darkstar...

A trailer+glider that requires a V8 truck to tow is different
from one I can tow with a 6 cylinder SUV. The weight is there,
and has other implications than just rigging...


WTF? I've owned two 600-lb 15m gliders, and I've never used more than
4 cylinders to tow them.

Perhaps you forgot to release the parking brake?

LOL. I bet you live somewhere a bit flat? Good for you...

8 cylinders vs 4 cylinders
Tahoe vs Golf
USA vs the World
Diesel vs Gasoline

Does it seem like a longer than usual winter?

Liam Finley wrote:
(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:4035b4c5$1@darkstar...

A trailer+glider that requires a V8 truck to tow is different
from one I can tow with a 6 cylinder SUV. The weight is there,
and has other implications than just rigging...



WTF? I've owned two 600-lb 15m gliders, and I've never used more than
4 cylinders to tow them.

Perhaps you forgot to release the parking brake?

Maybe each poster should list his parameters at the start of a posting:

Typical towing speeds
Distance towed each year
Elevations towed over
Peak air temperatures while towing
Length of trip during towing (days, not distance)
Number of passengers and their luggage
Weight of trailer
Weight of tow vehicle

It'll bring some reality to the discussion when you realize one poster
tows his glider 50 miles to the gliderport at the start of the season
and back home at the end, while another is traveling 10,000 miles a
year, with his family and luggage for 3 weeks at a time, several times a
year.

I know, it won't be as much fun! It might let us figure out why there is
such a discrepancy in what is needed for an "adequate" tow vehicle.
--
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change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA