Landout Laws

On 2/18/04 6:38 PM, in article ,
"plasticguy" wrote:

Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.

Hmm...
What _do_ you call it when an aircraft loses power and has to land?

At 17:54 20 February 2004, 303pilot wrote:

On 2/18/04 6:38 PM, in article
,
'plasticguy' wrote:

Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.

Hmm...
What _do_ you call it when an aircraft loses power
and has to land?


My SEL instructor taught me to use the word 'precautionary,'
because, as he said, 'Once the word emergency is used,
you have to fill out papers.'

In article ,
Nyal Williams wrote:
At 17:54 20 February 2004, 303pilot wrote:

On 2/18/04 6:38 PM, in article
,
'plasticguy' wrote:

Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.

Hmm...
What _do_ you call it when an aircraft loses power
and has to land?


My SEL instructor taught me to use the word 'precautionary,'
because, as he said, 'Once the word emergency is used,
you have to fill out papers.'

I've declared an emergency about a half-dozen times,
and never filled out (or been asked to fill out) a shred of paper.
I think this is mostly only asked for if it impacts a
commercial operation or it's a clear case of pilot
error that caused the emergency (fuel exhaustion while
carrying a passenger in a Cezzna, for example).

On the other hand, in every case I was VERY happy to be greeted
by fire trucks and police cars, the airport manager,
or the guy at the 800 number telling me
he was glad I was OK.

One time it was as simple as "I've lost engine power and am
landing at airport XYZ. If I don't call you from the ground
after a safe landing in five minutes, send the fire
department." An airliner relayed my safe landing to ATC,
and when I called them also later, they were just happy I
had a safe landing.

In article ,
Stefan wrote:
Nyal Williams wrote:

My SEL instructor taught me to use the word 'precautionary,'
because, as he said, 'Once the word emergency is used,
you have to fill out papers.'

Every now and then I read, mainly from American pilots: Don't do this or
that, because if you do, you will have to fill out papers. Which rises
the question: How did they manage to pass their written if they
obviously cannot read and write? Or, if I'm wrong and they can, what's
the problem?

Stefan

LOL. I think they really mean "there will be evidence in your
file and your insurance rates may increase or you may
have a harder time finding aviation employment." I have
seen papers in the FAA files which have caused these results
for some pilots. I personally would rather declare
an emergency and have assistance than try to cover up my
errors and hope for the best (but perhaps end up with
an injury).

Nyal Williams wrote:

My SEL instructor taught me to use the word 'precautionary,'
because, as he said, 'Once the word emergency is used,
you have to fill out papers.'

Every now and then I read, mainly from American pilots: Don't do this or
that, because if you do, you will have to fill out papers. Which rises
the question: How did they manage to pass their written if they
obviously cannot read and write? Or, if I'm wrong and they can, what's
the problem?

Stefan

Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.

Hmm...
What _do_ you call it when an aircraft loses power and has to land?


I got a couple email responses to this advising me that the discussion was
about sailplanes, not powered planes.

The words were chosen to introduce the argument that there's no difference
between a powered airplane that loses power and a sailplane that loses
power, other than the fact that one is externally powered and the other
internally powered and that a well maintained engine may be more predictable
than thermals, ridge lift and wave.

So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is forced
to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is unable to
connect to its source of power and is forced to land? Shouldn't those on
the ground treat them the same?

FWIW, I've not had a bad experience with a landowner.
My favorite was last summer. I landed out on a ranch strip that hadn't seen
an aircraft in a decade. One of the ranch hands--straight out of central
casting--said,
"I saw you circling with those buzzards pretty low over the auction pen."
"Yeah, sailplanes use the same lift as soaring birds do" said I.
"Looks like they're a little better at it" said he.
"Yeah, they are" I said shaking my head and laughing.

Brent


"303pilot" brentUNDERSCOREsullivanATbmcDOTcom wrote in message
...

On 2/18/04 6:38 PM, in article ,
"plasticguy" wrote:

Off field landings...are not technically emergencies.

Hmm...
What _do_ you call it when an aircraft loses power and has to land?

303pilot wrote:

So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is forced
to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is unable to
connect to its source of power and is forced to land?

Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your plan B.

Stefan

In article ,
Stefan wrote:

303pilot wrote:

So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is forced
to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is unable to
connect to its source of power and is forced to land?

Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your plan B.

In a Cezzna, a possible outlanding in the event of engine failure should
always be plan B as well. Judging by the number of times that Cezzna
pilots faced with an outlanding f*ck it up they don't think enough about
plan B.

-- Bruce

So the attitude of the pilot at the time of the event determines whether it
is an emergency or not?
Aren't powered pilots required to fly at an altitude sufficient to offer a
landing option should they lose power? Isn't that just their plan B?

Still looking for the difference...

Brent
"Stefan" wrote in message
...
303pilot wrote:

So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is
forced
to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is
unable to
connect to its source of power and is forced to land?

Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your plan
B.

Stefan

Stefan wrote:
303pilot wrote:

So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is forced
to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is unable to
connect to its source of power and is forced to land?

Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your plan B.

I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
running out of gas in a power plane. If I had lousy fuel
gauges, and never checked the fuel levels before flight in
power planes, I'd probably only fly airplanes with excellent
glide ratios and that I could disassemble and trailer. ;(

I think whether an "outlanding" is an emergency has a lot more
to do with the pilot than the aircraft or type of activity.

For the multi-engine pilot examiners, who've landed dozens of
times with an engine that won't restart, single-engine landings
aren't emergencies, they're just "abnormal" procedures.

For our local examiner and our local 30,000 hr instructor,
who've had dozens of engine failures, this is just an "abnormal"
procedure. They always fly a profile that allows an assured
safe landing, given their experience and abilities, and
it's no coincidence that they haven't damaged an aircraft during
any of these engine failures.

For different glider pilots, I think different types of
"outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.

The first time I landed at an airstrip in a glider, and I hadn't
planned on landing there, it was an emergency. I didn't know
for sure if the glider would be damaged during the landing.
There were enough unknowns that I certainly was not completely
confident of an assured good outcome.

For me now, an "outlanding" at an airstrip, airport, or closed
airport I have scouted out and/or landed at before is an
"abnormal" procedure, if I hadn't planned to land there during
that flight.

Having scouted out a lot of strips (in a power plane) that looked
good from the air, and then gotten lower and said "no way I'd
ever land anything there," I'd consider landing a glider at
an unknown airstrip an emergency procedure (for me). I'd
also consider landing in a plowed field an emergency
procedure (for me). Really just because I haven't done it
before and am not completely confident and assured that
I can do it without damage. Reading and training is one thing,
doing it is another.

Carl Herold at
www.lvvsa.org/Training/LANDOUT-VER-2b.pdf
"Training: An off field landing is an unplanned emergency landing!"

If you look at his record, 2 of his first 10 X-C flights damaged
a glider during an off field landing. At 154 X-C flights, he damaged
a glider off field.

My conclusion from his record of "newbie" experience, plus my
own experiences and hangar talk, is that "newbie" glider pilots doing
early X-C should plan and execute cross-country flights so that
they land only at suitable airstrips (CH discusses this in
more detail). After a dozen+ experiences with crosswinds,
wondering if the wingspan is wider than the runway, vehicles
or other obstructions on the strip, and a few trailer and
aero-retrieves, I think a pilot then has a much better idea
what the risks and constraints are for a safe landing off field.
Will they then choose to accept that risk and
accept new landouts? Perhaps...

One seldom discussed option is to scout out the landouts in a
powered airplane. Some towplanes are insured for dual instruction
also. Take the glider pilot (or 3) along the route and land/low pass
at each airstrip and airport near home. For $100 split 3 ways,
this seems like a great preview of things to come.

61.93 requirements don't specify the X-C training for students
needs to be in a glider, so do it in a power plane instead.
More flexibility, can cover more airports in less time, and
it takes the mystery out of outlandings for newbie pilots
who've never landed anywhere but home. Then, if the CFIG
is really comfortable with the student, sign them off for
an X-C. Should you do a landing at an alien airstrip
dual first? Maybe. Results may vary...

Cross-country is fun. The SSA and others wonder why
newbies don't do it more. Simple. They've never done it
before so it's risky. We can either talk about it a lot
and wait for perfect conditions and do a lot of planning
and then struggle to fly dual and then pay for a tow
home, or:

we can just get in a dang airplane (or motorglider) and
do a "scouting" cross-country. It's worked for me...