Landout Laws

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:403bbce6$1@darkstar...
Stefan wrote:
303pilot wrote:

So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is
forced
to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is
unable to
connect to its source of power and is forced to land?

Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your plan
B.

I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
running out of gas in a power plane. If I had lousy fuel
gauges, and never checked the fuel levels before flight in
power planes, I'd probably only fly airplanes with excellent
glide ratios and that I could disassemble and trailer. ;(

I think whether an "outlanding" is an emergency has a lot more
to do with the pilot than the aircraft or type of activity.

For the multi-engine pilot examiners, who've landed dozens of
times with an engine that won't restart, single-engine landings
aren't emergencies, they're just "abnormal" procedures.

For our local examiner and our local 30,000 hr instructor,
who've had dozens of engine failures, this is just an "abnormal"
procedure. They always fly a profile that allows an assured
safe landing, given their experience and abilities, and
it's no coincidence that they haven't damaged an aircraft during
any of these engine failures.

For different glider pilots, I think different types of
"outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.

The first time I landed at an airstrip in a glider, and I hadn't
planned on landing there, it was an emergency. I didn't know
for sure if the glider would be damaged during the landing.
There were enough unknowns that I certainly was not completely
confident of an assured good outcome.

For me now, an "outlanding" at an airstrip, airport, or closed
airport I have scouted out and/or landed at before is an
"abnormal" procedure, if I hadn't planned to land there during
that flight.

Having scouted out a lot of strips (in a power plane) that looked
good from the air, and then gotten lower and said "no way I'd
ever land anything there," I'd consider landing a glider at
an unknown airstrip an emergency procedure (for me). I'd
also consider landing in a plowed field an emergency
procedure (for me). Really just because I haven't done it
before and am not completely confident and assured that
I can do it without damage. Reading and training is one thing,
doing it is another.

Carl Herold at
www.lvvsa.org/Training/LANDOUT-VER-2b.pdf
"Training: An off field landing is an unplanned emergency landing!"

If you look at his record, 2 of his first 10 X-C flights damaged
a glider during an off field landing. At 154 X-C flights, he damaged
a glider off field.

My conclusion from his record of "newbie" experience, plus my
own experiences and hangar talk, is that "newbie" glider pilots doing
early X-C should plan and execute cross-country flights so that
they land only at suitable airstrips (CH discusses this in
more detail). After a dozen+ experiences with crosswinds,
wondering if the wingspan is wider than the runway, vehicles
or other obstructions on the strip, and a few trailer and
aero-retrieves, I think a pilot then has a much better idea
what the risks and constraints are for a safe landing off field.
Will they then choose to accept that risk and
accept new landouts? Perhaps...

One seldom discussed option is to scout out the landouts in a
powered airplane. Some towplanes are insured for dual instruction
also. Take the glider pilot (or 3) along the route and land/low pass
at each airstrip and airport near home. For $100 split 3 ways,
this seems like a great preview of things to come.

61.93 requirements don't specify the X-C training for students
needs to be in a glider, so do it in a power plane instead.
More flexibility, can cover more airports in less time, and
it takes the mystery out of outlandings for newbie pilots
who've never landed anywhere but home. Then, if the CFIG
is really comfortable with the student, sign them off for
an X-C. Should you do a landing at an alien airstrip
dual first? Maybe. Results may vary...

Cross-country is fun. The SSA and others wonder why
newbies don't do it more. Simple. They've never done it
before so it's risky. We can either talk about it a lot
and wait for perfect conditions and do a lot of planning
and then struggle to fly dual and then pay for a tow
home, or:

we can just get in a dang airplane (or motorglider) and
do a "scouting" cross-country. It's worked for me...


Good post, Mark.

I have a simple XC rule. Never fly beyond safe gliding distance to a
known-safe landing site. That doesn't mean I don't go, it means I scout a
lot of landing sites from the ground. I walk them, measure them and note
the details in a little book. GPS makes this kind of expedition a lot
easier and more accurate.

There is a web site where this kind of information can be uploaded for all
to use. I plan to be sending them a lot of information and pictures. I
think everybody should. It is: http://www.airstripamerica.com/

Bill Daniels

"Bill Daniels" wrote:


I have a simple XC rule. Never fly beyond safe gliding distance to a
known-safe landing site. That doesn't mean I don't go, it means I scout a
lot of landing sites from the ground. I walk them, measure them and note
the details in a little book. GPS makes this kind of expedition a lot
easier and more accurate.


It would be really great if you and all others that do things like
that could maybe share the textual results with others. If such
observations could be collected in put in a spreadsheet, or some other
fairly searchable form it would be of great service to all, especially
those that are unfamiliar with an area they happen to come to for a
week or so, or even are just starting to explore XC soaring.

I would be willing if no one else is to be a "translator" that is if
people send me text files, I'll put them in a spreadsheet (anyone that
would like to help....). Logical place to place them would be on the
SSA server, or at the worldwide turnpoint exchange. Failing that I can
still find some space on my server for something like that (I do not
have space for pictures, sorry, but everyone could find home for a
picture or two, and links could be published.)

Henryk Birecki

Bill Daniels wrote:

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:403bbce6$1@darkstar...

Stefan wrote:

303pilot wrote:


So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is

forced

to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is

unable to

connect to its source of power and is forced to land?

Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your plan

B.

I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
running out of gas in a power plane. If I had lousy fuel
gauges, and never checked the fuel levels before flight in
power planes, I'd probably only fly airplanes with excellent
glide ratios and that I could disassemble and trailer. ;(

I think whether an "outlanding" is an emergency has a lot more
to do with the pilot than the aircraft or type of activity.

For the multi-engine pilot examiners, who've landed dozens of
times with an engine that won't restart, single-engine landings
aren't emergencies, they're just "abnormal" procedures.

For our local examiner and our local 30,000 hr instructor,
who've had dozens of engine failures, this is just an "abnormal"
procedure. They always fly a profile that allows an assured
safe landing, given their experience and abilities, and
it's no coincidence that they haven't damaged an aircraft during
any of these engine failures.

For different glider pilots, I think different types of
"outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.

The first time I landed at an airstrip in a glider, and I hadn't
planned on landing there, it was an emergency. I didn't know
for sure if the glider would be damaged during the landing.
There were enough unknowns that I certainly was not completely
confident of an assured good outcome.

For me now, an "outlanding" at an airstrip, airport, or closed
airport I have scouted out and/or landed at before is an
"abnormal" procedure, if I hadn't planned to land there during
that flight.

Having scouted out a lot of strips (in a power plane) that looked
good from the air, and then gotten lower and said "no way I'd
ever land anything there," I'd consider landing a glider at
an unknown airstrip an emergency procedure (for me). I'd
also consider landing in a plowed field an emergency
procedure (for me). Really just because I haven't done it
before and am not completely confident and assured that
I can do it without damage. Reading and training is one thing,
doing it is another.

Carl Herold at
www.lvvsa.org/Training/LANDOUT-VER-2b.pdf
"Training: An off field landing is an unplanned emergency landing!"

If you look at his record, 2 of his first 10 X-C flights damaged
a glider during an off field landing. At 154 X-C flights, he damaged
a glider off field.

My conclusion from his record of "newbie" experience, plus my
own experiences and hangar talk, is that "newbie" glider pilots doing
early X-C should plan and execute cross-country flights so that
they land only at suitable airstrips (CH discusses this in
more detail). After a dozen+ experiences with crosswinds,
wondering if the wingspan is wider than the runway, vehicles
or other obstructions on the strip, and a few trailer and
aero-retrieves, I think a pilot then has a much better idea
what the risks and constraints are for a safe landing off field.
Will they then choose to accept that risk and
accept new landouts? Perhaps...

One seldom discussed option is to scout out the landouts in a
powered airplane. Some towplanes are insured for dual instruction
also. Take the glider pilot (or 3) along the route and land/low pass
at each airstrip and airport near home. For $100 split 3 ways,
this seems like a great preview of things to come.

61.93 requirements don't specify the X-C training for students
needs to be in a glider, so do it in a power plane instead.
More flexibility, can cover more airports in less time, and
it takes the mystery out of outlandings for newbie pilots
who've never landed anywhere but home. Then, if the CFIG
is really comfortable with the student, sign them off for
an X-C. Should you do a landing at an alien airstrip
dual first? Maybe. Results may vary...

Cross-country is fun. The SSA and others wonder why
newbies don't do it more. Simple. They've never done it
before so it's risky. We can either talk about it a lot
and wait for perfect conditions and do a lot of planning
and then struggle to fly dual and then pay for a tow
home, or:

we can just get in a dang airplane (or motorglider) and
do a "scouting" cross-country. It's worked for me...



Good post, Mark.

I have a simple XC rule. Never fly beyond safe gliding distance to a
known-safe landing site. That doesn't mean I don't go, it means I scout a
lot of landing sites from the ground. I walk them, measure them and note
the details in a little book. GPS makes this kind of expedition a lot
easier and more accurate.

There is a web site where this kind of information can be uploaded for all
to use. I plan to be sending them a lot of information and pictures. I
think everybody should. It is: http://www.airstripamerica.com/

Bill Daniels

Bill, I'm having a heck of a time searching for strips in Colorado. All
I get is a listing of the 1st 25 fields with Colorado in the name
including onse in AZ and TX. I can't switch it to show "100 matches",
it just defaults to 25. Typical search commands like "-TX" don't work
either. I sent them a comment to this effect. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Shawn

"Shawn Curry" wrote in message
news:2A4%b.56185$Xp.267376@attbi_s54...
Bill Daniels wrote:

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:403bbce6$1@darkstar...

Stefan wrote:

303pilot wrote:


So, if it is an emergency when a powered aircraft loses power and is

forced

to land, why would it not also be an emergency when a sailplane is

unable to

connect to its source of power and is forced to land?

Because in a sailplane, at any given moment outlanding is just your
plan

B.

I think of unplanned outlandings in the same way I think of
running out of gas in a power plane. If I had lousy fuel
gauges, and never checked the fuel levels before flight in
power planes, I'd probably only fly airplanes with excellent
glide ratios and that I could disassemble and trailer. ;(

I think whether an "outlanding" is an emergency has a lot more
to do with the pilot than the aircraft or type of activity.

For the multi-engine pilot examiners, who've landed dozens of
times with an engine that won't restart, single-engine landings
aren't emergencies, they're just "abnormal" procedures.

For our local examiner and our local 30,000 hr instructor,
who've had dozens of engine failures, this is just an "abnormal"
procedure. They always fly a profile that allows an assured
safe landing, given their experience and abilities, and
it's no coincidence that they haven't damaged an aircraft during
any of these engine failures.

For different glider pilots, I think different types of
"outlandings" may be an emergency or may be an "abnormal" procedure.

The first time I landed at an airstrip in a glider, and I hadn't
planned on landing there, it was an emergency. I didn't know
for sure if the glider would be damaged during the landing.
There were enough unknowns that I certainly was not completely
confident of an assured good outcome.

For me now, an "outlanding" at an airstrip, airport, or closed
airport I have scouted out and/or landed at before is an
"abnormal" procedure, if I hadn't planned to land there during
that flight.

Having scouted out a lot of strips (in a power plane) that looked
good from the air, and then gotten lower and said "no way I'd
ever land anything there," I'd consider landing a glider at
an unknown airstrip an emergency procedure (for me). I'd
also consider landing in a plowed field an emergency
procedure (for me). Really just because I haven't done it
before and am not completely confident and assured that
I can do it without damage. Reading and training is one thing,
doing it is another.

Carl Herold at
www.lvvsa.org/Training/LANDOUT-VER-2b.pdf
"Training: An off field landing is an unplanned emergency landing!"

If you look at his record, 2 of his first 10 X-C flights damaged
a glider during an off field landing. At 154 X-C flights, he damaged
a glider off field.

My conclusion from his record of "newbie" experience, plus my
own experiences and hangar talk, is that "newbie" glider pilots doing
early X-C should plan and execute cross-country flights so that
they land only at suitable airstrips (CH discusses this in
more detail). After a dozen+ experiences with crosswinds,
wondering if the wingspan is wider than the runway, vehicles
or other obstructions on the strip, and a few trailer and
aero-retrieves, I think a pilot then has a much better idea
what the risks and constraints are for a safe landing off field.
Will they then choose to accept that risk and
accept new landouts? Perhaps...

One seldom discussed option is to scout out the landouts in a
powered airplane. Some towplanes are insured for dual instruction
also. Take the glider pilot (or 3) along the route and land/low pass
at each airstrip and airport near home. For $100 split 3 ways,
this seems like a great preview of things to come.

61.93 requirements don't specify the X-C training for students
needs to be in a glider, so do it in a power plane instead.
More flexibility, can cover more airports in less time, and
it takes the mystery out of outlandings for newbie pilots
who've never landed anywhere but home. Then, if the CFIG
is really comfortable with the student, sign them off for
an X-C. Should you do a landing at an alien airstrip
dual first? Maybe. Results may vary...

Cross-country is fun. The SSA and others wonder why
newbies don't do it more. Simple. They've never done it
before so it's risky. We can either talk about it a lot
and wait for perfect conditions and do a lot of planning
and then struggle to fly dual and then pay for a tow
home, or:

we can just get in a dang airplane (or motorglider) and
do a "scouting" cross-country. It's worked for me...



Good post, Mark.

I have a simple XC rule. Never fly beyond safe gliding distance to a
known-safe landing site. That doesn't mean I don't go, it means I
scout a
lot of landing sites from the ground. I walk them, measure them and
note
the details in a little book. GPS makes this kind of expedition a lot
easier and more accurate.

There is a web site where this kind of information can be uploaded for
all
to use. I plan to be sending them a lot of information and pictures. I
think everybody should. It is: http://www.airstripamerica.com/

Bill Daniels

Bill, I'm having a heck of a time searching for strips in Colorado. All
I get is a listing of the 1st 25 fields with Colorado in the name
including onse in AZ and TX. I can't switch it to show "100 matches",
it just defaults to 25. Typical search commands like "-TX" don't work
either. I sent them a comment to this effect. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Shawn

Just enter the nearest city name. i.e. "Salida".

Shawn, are you going to scout some strips in Colorado? Not to duplicate
work, I'm starting in the San Luis Valley with a road trip in March, or as
soon as the snow melts on the back country strips. I need more landout
options on a line from Pagosa Springs to East Blanca Peak.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels

I have a simple XC rule. Never fly beyond safe gliding distance to a
known-safe landing site. That doesn't mean I don't go, it means I

scout a

lot of landing sites from the ground. I walk them, measure them and

note

the details in a little book. GPS makes this kind of expedition a lot
easier and more accurate.

There is a web site where this kind of information can be uploaded for

all

to use. I plan to be sending them a lot of information and pictures. I
think everybody should. It is: http://www.airstripamerica.com/

Bill Daniels


Bill, I'm having a heck of a time searching for strips in Colorado. All
I get is a listing of the 1st 25 fields with Colorado in the name
including onse in AZ and TX. I can't switch it to show "100 matches",
it just defaults to 25. Typical search commands like "-TX" don't work
either. I sent them a comment to this effect. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Shawn


Just enter the nearest city name. i.e. "Salida".

Shawn, are you going to scout some strips in Colorado? Not to duplicate
work, I'm starting in the San Luis Valley with a road trip in March, or as
soon as the snow melts on the back country strips. I need more landout
options on a line from Pagosa Springs to East Blanca Peak.

Bill Daniels

That's part of why I asked. I'm most curious of the area north of what
you mention, up to Taylor Park or so.
Stu has done some scouting. I'll forward this to him in case he's not
lurking.

Shawn