Any news from IGC?

I stand corrected. My original query still stands.
Where cameras and smoky barographs were used I can
see the sense of a 'declaration'. With GPS do we really
need it, surely the criteria should be the distance
flown and this can now be positively verified with
a data logger. Why complicate something so simple?
A 300k or 500k downwind dash ie free distance is ok
so why not a triangle

At 11:48 05 March 2004, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
X-no-archive: yes
In article , Don Johnstone
writes
At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.

Which is hard to understand. Anyone with a programmable
logger can get airbourne and then declare a flight
by entering the details in the logger, and claim a
badge flight. Those without a logger which has this
facility cannot do this, they are at a disadvantage.
Surely we should have a level palying field. Awarding
badges on the distance flown where an approved logger
is used, whether declared or not, would solve this
problem. Those who cannot afford expensive kit are
being discriminated against.
The award of badges should be made on performance,
not the ability of the pilot to purchase an expensive
logger.

Check your facts Don, declarations made after take-off
are invalid.

Sporting Code section 3:

4.2.2 Declaration validity
a. The last declaration made before takeoff is the
only one valid for
the flight, but a concurrently flown and different
competition task is
allowed.

Tim Newport-Peace

'Indecision is the Key to Flexibility.'

I think that there is quite a difference between flying a declared task and
a free distance one. Declarations imply some degree of weather interpreting
, task area selection and planning. Free distance - get under a stonking
street and keep going! The difference is subtle but its there!

Not sure if this is pertinent but free distance tasks are not acceptable for
badge flights

Ian



"Don Johnstone" wrote in
message ...
I stand corrected. My original query still stands.
Where cameras and smoky barographs were used I can
see the sense of a 'declaration'. With GPS do we really
need it, surely the criteria should be the distance
flown and this can now be positively verified with
a data logger. Why complicate something so simple?
A 300k or 500k downwind dash ie free distance is ok
so why not a triangle

At 11:48 05 March 2004, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
X-no-archive: yes
In article , Don Johnstone
writes
At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.

Which is hard to understand. Anyone with a programmable
logger can get airbourne and then declare a flight
by entering the details in the logger, and claim a
badge flight. Those without a logger which has this
facility cannot do this, they are at a disadvantage.
Surely we should have a level palying field. Awarding
badges on the distance flown where an approved logger
is used, whether declared or not, would solve this
problem. Those who cannot afford expensive kit are
being discriminated against.
The award of badges should be made on performance,
not the ability of the pilot to purchase an expensive
logger.

Check your facts Don, declarations made after take-off
are invalid.

Sporting Code section 3:

4.2.2 Declaration validity
a. The last declaration made before takeoff is the
only one valid for
the flight, but a concurrently flown and different
competition task is
allowed.

Tim Newport-Peace

'Indecision is the Key to Flexibility.'

tango4 wrote:
Not sure if this is pertinent but free distance tasks are not acceptable for
badge flights

Yes they are ! Either free distance in straight line or free distance
with up to 3 (predeclared) turn points

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

Denis wrote:
tango4 wrote:
Not sure if this is pertinent but free distance tasks are not acceptable for
badge flights

Yes they are ! Either free distance in straight line or free distance
with up to 3 (predeclared) turn points

I have to point out a confusion that I had as well about
definitions.

A "free 3TP" task means the 3 turnpoints are declared
before the flight, but the order of the turnpoints, and
whether 1,2,or all 3 turnpoints are claimed
is declared after the flight. I haven't seen this clearly explained
anywhere but on some of the declaration forms themselves.

This is different from what I would conceptually
consider "free," which is when three turnpoins would
be chosen after the flight from the three points on the gps trace
which are furthest apart.

Anyone with more comment on this please correct me if
this is mistaken...I've only flown one free 3TP record,
and the "free 3TP" task and form were what I used.


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Mark James Boyd wrote:

I have to point out a confusion that I had as well about
definitions.

A "free 3TP" task means the 3 turnpoints are declared
before the flight, but the order of the turnpoints, and
whether 1,2,or all 3 turnpoints are claimed
is declared after the flight. I haven't seen this clearly explained
anywhere but on some of the declaration forms themselves.

You're right twice. It is correct (for badges), and not clear at all :-(((

This is different from what I would conceptually
consider "free," which is when three turnpoins would
be chosen after the flight from the three points on the gps trace
which are furthest apart.

That's the "free distance with up to 3 turn points for records"

Anyone with more comment on this please correct me if
this is mistaken...I've only flown one free 3TP record,
and the "free 3TP" task and form were what I used.

In short, the "free 3TP" is free for records, and declared (except the
finish point and the sequence) for badges.

This may be explained by historical reasons, but nowadays it is a full
nonsense : the logic would implie that there be "free 3TP" -- like
actual 3 TP for records -- and (declared) 3 TP -- like actual 3 TP for
badges, but with declared finish point and TP sequence.

Furthermore, there should be an additionnal record category for
"declared 3TP" now that every other type of task ( straight distance,
out&return, triangles) have both declared and free records !

But is IGC any logical ? :-(((

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

In article ,
Denis wrote:
Mark James Boyd wrote:

I have to point out a confusion that I had as well about
definitions.

A "free 3TP" task means the 3 turnpoints are declared
before the flight, but the order of the turnpoints, and
whether 1,2,or all 3 turnpoints are claimed
is declared after the flight. I haven't seen this clearly explained
anywhere but on some of the declaration forms themselves.

You're right twice. It is correct (for badges), and not clear at all :-(((

This is different from what I would conceptually
consider "free," which is when three turnpoins would
be chosen after the flight from the three points on the gps trace
which are furthest apart.

That's the "free distance with up to 3 turn points for records"

Anyone with more comment on this please correct me if
this is mistaken...I've only flown one free 3TP record,
and the "free 3TP" task and form were what I used.

In short, the "free 3TP" is free for records, and declared (except the
finish point and the sequence) for badges.

This may be explained by historical reasons, but nowadays it is a full
nonsense : the logic would implie that there be "free 3TP" -- like
actual 3 TP for records -- and (declared) 3 TP -- like actual 3 TP for
badges, but with declared finish point and TP sequence.

Furthermore, there should be an additionnal record category for
"declared 3TP" now that every other type of task ( straight distance,
out&return, triangles) have both declared and free records !

Well, you've done a much better job clarifying that. I didn't
know the record "free 3TP" could be points declared after the
flight. Interesting...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Don Johnstone wrote:
I stand corrected. My original query still stands.
Where cameras and smoky barographs were used I can
see the sense of a 'declaration'. With GPS do we really
need it, surely the criteria should be the distance
flown and this can now be positively verified with
a data logger. Why complicate something so simple?
A 300k or 500k downwind dash ie free distance is ok
so why not a triangle

It's not a matter of technology, but philosophy. Cameras or GPS
recorder, you can still make a witnessed takeoff and fly an undeclared
flight. The declared flight definitely predates cameras! I don't know
the history well, but certainly it is a more difficult task to achieve,
and this gives it more value to many of us. Lately, undeclared tasks
have been added, at least for records, so perhaps the philosophy is
changing.

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

In article ,
Don Johnstone wrote:
I stand corrected. My original query still stands.
Where cameras and smoky barographs were used I can
see the sense of a 'declaration'. With GPS do we really
need it, surely the criteria should be the distance
flown and this can now be positively verified with
a data logger. Why complicate something so simple?
A 300k or 500k downwind dash ie free distance is ok
so why not a triangle

A couple of points, and if anyone thinks any
of these are wrong, please correct me:

1. If a qualifying task is completed which is a subset
of the declared task, this is fine:

EXAMPLE:

A B


D C E

If A-B-E-C-D-A is declared, A-B-C-D-A is flown, and
A-B-C-A qualifies as a 300km triangle, then (assuming the
OZ and altitude rules are met), this is considered a
"declared and completed 300km triangle." Congratulations!

2. There is no limit on the number of turnpoints one
may declare for a flight.

3. Turnpoints may be repeated in a delaration.

So, for example,

A-B-C-D-E-A-B-C-E-D-A-B-D-C-E-A-B-D-E-C-A-B-E-C-D-A-B-E-D-C-
A-C-B-D-E-A-C-B-E-D-A-C-D-B-E-A-C-D-E-B-A-C-E-B-D-A-C-E-D-B-
A-D-B-C-E-A-D-B-E-C-A-D-C-B-E-A-D-C-E-B-A-D-E-B-C-A-D-E-C-B-
A-E-B-C-D-A-E-B-D-C-A-E-C-B-D-A-E-C-D-B-A-E-D-C-B-A-E-D-B-C

is a perfectly valid task declaration. It's also quite useful,
because if one declares this before the flight, one can
fly the turnpoints in any order and after the flight,
that subset achieved is considered a completed, declared
task. And any subset of those points which qualifies
for a badge is also completed and qualifying.

So if one has a clever computer program to print out
all the turnpoint permutations, and enough printer paper,
and a friendly OO, one can simply fly any turnpoints in
whatever order and come back and land and then figure out
what the flight qualifies for. All quite proper.

Reducio ad absurdum...

The IGC should have approved the idea of post-flight declared
turnpoints for badge tasks. It saves paper...

--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

X-no-archive: yes
In article 404cf98a$1@darkstar, Mark James Boyd
writes
A couple of points, and if anyone thinks any
of these are wrong, please correct me:

1. If a qualifying task is completed which is a subset
of the declared task, this is fine:

EXAMPLE:

A B


D C E

If A-B-E-C-D-A is declared, A-B-C-D-A is flown, and
A-B-C-A qualifies as a 300km triangle, then (assuming the
OZ and altitude rules are met), this is considered a
"declared and completed 300km triangle." Congratulations!

2. There is no limit on the number of turnpoints one
may declare for a flight.

3. Turnpoints may be repeated in a delaration.

For badges a maximum of 3 waypoints may be claimed and each Waypoint may
only be claimed once. (SC3, 1.4.5(b). The sequence must be on the
declaration.


Tim Newport-Peace

"Indecision is the Key to Flexibility."

Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

For badges a maximum of 3 waypoints may be claimed and each Waypoint may
only be claimed once. (SC3, 1.4.5(b).

Yes

The sequence must be on the declaration.

No ! The course must be declared, but
"The TURN POINTS( ...) may be claimed once, *in any sequence* "
(SC3, 1.4.5(b) also)



--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?