Any news from IGC?

X-no-archive: yes
In article , Denis moncourrielest
writes
Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

For badges a maximum of 3 waypoints may be claimed and each Waypoint may
only be claimed once. (SC3, 1.4.5(b).

Yes

The sequence must be on the declaration.

No ! The course must be declared, but
"The TURN POINTS( ...) may be claimed once, *in any sequence* "
(SC3, 1.4.5(b) also)



--
Denis


Hi Denis,

But what about:

4.2.1 Declaration content
--------snip
e. Way points and the sequence to be flown, start, turn(s), finish/goal
as applicable to the specific soaring performance *

Tim Newport-Peace

"Indecision is the Key to Flexibility."

Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

4.2.1 Declaration content
--------snip
e. Way points and the sequence to be flown, start, turn(s), finish/goal
as applicable to the specific soaring performance *

I suppose that "as applicable to the specific soaring performance" means
that "sequence" -- as well as goal ! -- are not applicable to the free
distance w/3TP, or that you must declare it, but you need not fly it as
declared (!)

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

Running up and down just few kilometers from the airport is not the
same performance what requires by the current 3 turnpoints (plus start
and finish point) rule. Double out and return still allowed.
Theoretically you don't have to go further than 125km from your home on
a 500km task.
I can imagine a paper declaration with simple GPS log for badges. This
would involve more pilots with the same security what photo and
barograph provide right now.

/Janos

Mark James Boyd wrote:

In article ,
Don Johnstone wrote:
I stand corrected. My original query still stands.
Where cameras and smoky barographs were used I can
see the sense of a 'declaration'. With GPS do we really
need it, surely the criteria should be the distance
flown and this can now be positively verified with
a data logger. Why complicate something so simple?
A 300k or 500k downwind dash ie free distance is ok
so why not a triangle

A couple of points, and if anyone thinks any
of these are wrong, please correct me:

1. If a qualifying task is completed which is a subset
of the declared task, this is fine:

EXAMPLE:

A B

D C E

If A-B-E-C-D-A is declared, A-B-C-D-A is flown, and
A-B-C-A qualifies as a 300km triangle, then (assuming the
OZ and altitude rules are met), this is considered a
"declared and completed 300km triangle." Congratulations!

2. There is no limit on the number of turnpoints one
may declare for a flight.

3. Turnpoints may be repeated in a delaration.

So, for example,

A-B-C-D-E-A-B-C-E-D-A-B-D-C-E-A-B-D-E-C-A-B-E-C-D-A-B-E-D-C-
A-C-B-D-E-A-C-B-E-D-A-C-D-B-E-A-C-D-E-B-A-C-E-B-D-A-C-E-D-B-
A-D-B-C-E-A-D-B-E-C-A-D-C-B-E-A-D-C-E-B-A-D-E-B-C-A-D-E-C-B-
A-E-B-C-D-A-E-B-D-C-A-E-C-B-D-A-E-C-D-B-A-E-D-C-B-A-E-D-B-C

is a perfectly valid task declaration. It's also quite useful,
because if one declares this before the flight, one can
fly the turnpoints in any order and after the flight,
that subset achieved is considered a completed, declared
task. And any subset of those points which qualifies
for a badge is also completed and qualifying.

So if one has a clever computer program to print out
all the turnpoint permutations, and enough printer paper,
and a friendly OO, one can simply fly any turnpoints in
whatever order and come back and land and then figure out
what the flight qualifies for. All quite proper.

Reducio ad absurdum...

The IGC should have approved the idea of post-flight declared
turnpoints for badge tasks. It saves paper...

Janos Bauer wrote:

Theoretically you don't have to go further than 125km from your home on
a 500km task.

it's actually 83.333 km only !


--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

In article ,
Denis wrote:
Janos Bauer wrote:

Theoretically you don't have to go further than 125km from your home on
a 500km task.

it's actually 83.333 km only !

Hmmm...if S is start, F is finish, points are 1, 2, 3, and A
is the airport:

S 1

2 A 3

F

Then S-1 = 1-2 = 2-3 = 3-F = 125km
Since half of that is the max distance to the airport, 62.5 km
is max distance (about 33NM).

For gold distance of 300km, this is 37.5km (20NM).

Astonishingly,
for silver distance, one can fly a 3TP course without ever going
more than 6.25km (3.3 NM) from the airport! Get towed out to
near the start, and just fly back and forth over the airport
four times!

I'm not saying it's easier than just grabbing a thermal to
6000ft and then doing a 50km downwind dash ), but it sounds
pretty darned easy...geez, at 3.3 NM from the airport,
1000ft AGL is final glide even for a 2-33 :O

Of course assume half glide, and add pattern, blah blah,
but even that's just 3000 ft. Not exactly a challenge...



--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

50 km silver - the 50 km has to be one leg in a straight stripe - read
2.1.1.a . You're going to have to get 25 km from the airfield.

Ian

In article ,
tango4 wrote:
50 km silver - the 50 km has to be one leg in a straight stripe - read
2.1.1.a . You're going to have to get 25 km from the airfield.

Ian

Darn good thing SOMEBODY is willing to look at the regs.

Thanks Ian! I thought that 3.3nm from the airport was a little
absurd...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Oh yes, you right! I will try it this summer

Denis wrote:

Janos Bauer wrote:

Theoretically you don't have to go further than 125km from your home on
a 500km task.

it's actually 83.333 km only !

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:404cf98a$1@darkstar...

A couple of points, and if anyone thinks any
of these are wrong, please correct me:

1. If a qualifying task is completed which is a subset
of the declared task, this is fine:

EXAMPLE:

A B


D C E

If A-B-E-C-D-A is declared, A-B-C-D-A is flown, and
A-B-C-A qualifies as a 300km triangle, then (assuming the
OZ and altitude rules are met), this is considered a
"declared and completed 300km triangle." Congratulations!

Huh? Last time I checked, a triangle had three points. So a DECLARED
triangle has three DECLARED points, not as many as you want. You
declare what you are going to fly, then either fly it or don't.
Pretty simple, even for a power pilot...

2. There is no limit on the number of turnpoints one
may declare for a flight.

See above. A declared triangle has a start, two turnpoints, and a
finish. You can't just declare your entire turnpoint list.

3. Turnpoints may be repeated in a delaration.

Tough to do in a triangle, possible in a distance claim. But you
still are required to declare the points in the sequence you intend to
fly them.

So, for example,

A-B-C-D-E-A-B-C-E-D-A-B-D-C-E-A-B-D-E-C-A-B-E-C-D-A-B-E-D-C-
A-C-B-D-E-A-C-B-E-D-A-C-D-B-E-A-C-D-E-B-A-C-E-B-D-A-C-E-D-B-
A-D-B-C-E-A-D-B-E-C-A-D-C-B-E-A-D-C-E-B-A-D-E-B-C-A-D-E-C-B-
A-E-B-C-D-A-E-B-D-C-A-E-C-B-D-A-E-C-D-B-A-E-D-C-B-A-E-D-B-C

is a perfectly valid task declaration. It's also quite useful,
because if one declares this before the flight, one can
fly the turnpoints in any order and after the flight,
that subset achieved is considered a completed, declared
task. And any subset of those points which qualifies
for a badge is also completed and qualifying.

So if one has a clever computer program to print out
all the turnpoint permutations, and enough printer paper,
and a friendly OO, one can simply fly any turnpoints in
whatever order and come back and land and then figure out
what the flight qualifies for. All quite proper.

Reducio ad absurdum...

More like total bull****. Is that how you teach power students to
plan their crosscountry flights? "Just fly around and land at any
airport you happen to see out the window, that will count for your
preflight XC planning..."

The IGC should have approved the idea of post-flight declared
turnpoints for badge tasks. It saves paper...

Why? THE WHOLE POINT IS TO DECLARE THE FLIGHT BEFORE YOU FLY IT, THEN
FLY IT! Otherwise, you are just wandering around. Nothing wrong with
that, but it isn't a declared badge flight.

Mark, read more Pez, wax up the PW-5, declare a task, then go fly it -
you'll feel a lot better afterwards.

Oh, and when you land out, get a ground retrieve, not an aerotow -
your friends will appreciate the steak dinner.

Kirk
66

Kirk Stant wrote:

A couple of points, and if anyone thinks any
of these are wrong, please correct me:

1. If a qualifying task is completed which is a subset
of the declared task, this is fine:

EXAMPLE:

A B


D C E

If A-B-E-C-D-A is declared, A-B-C-D-A is flown, and
A-B-C-A qualifies as a 300km triangle, then (assuming the
OZ and altitude rules are met), this is considered a
"declared and completed 300km triangle." Congratulations!

This is wrong, and I goofed. 4.2.2 "No turn points after
a missed turn point can
be claimed." Interestingly, though, the start and finish as far as I know
are NOT turnpoints. So A-B-A can still be claimed as
an out and return, but since E was missed, no turnpoints after
E can be claimed. Again, comments are welcome. This is complex and
comments are helping me work through it.


Huh? Last time I checked, a triangle had three points. So a DECLARED
triangle has three DECLARED points, not as many as you want. You
declare what you are going to fly, then either fly it or don't.
Pretty simple, even for a power pilot...

Well, in the annex C examples, SC3 does describe declared courses
which are not triangles, but which include points which qualify
as a triangle, and that this is fine (the lesser included performance
can be claimed).

The idea here being that if someone declares a 3TP course, and
completes it, if there is a lesser included O&R, triangle, or
straight distance which qualifies or makes a record, then
this is fine.

Are more than 3TPs allowed in a declaration? I can't find
any restriction on this...


2. There is no limit on the number of turnpoints one
may declare for a flight.

See above. A declared triangle has a start, two turnpoints, and a
finish. You can't just declare your entire turnpoint list.

Hmmm...I think you can, but the caveat is that if any turnpoints
are missed along the way, the performance stops (4.2.2 above).
This is clearly a show-stopper...

I honestly don't see anything in the regs which specifically
limits one from declaring more than three turnpoints for a
task. Again, I welcome comments and corrections...

3. Turnpoints may be repeated in a delaration.
A-B-C-D-E-A-B-C-E-D-A-B-D-C-E-A-B-D-E-C-A-B-E-C-D-A-B-E-D-C-
A-C-B-D-E-A-C-B-E-D-A-C-D-B-E-A-C-D-E-B-A-C-E-B-D-A-C-E-D-B-
A-D-B-C-E-A-D-B-E-C-A-D-C-B-E-A-D-C-E-B-A-D-E-B-C-A-D-E-C-B-
A-E-B-C-D-A-E-B-D-C-A-E-C-B-D-A-E-C-D-B-A-E-D-C-B-A-E-D-B-C

is a perfectly valid task declaration. It's also quite useful,

More like total bull****.
Eeeep. Yes I was just plain wrong. Thanks to the posters that
helped me find 4.2.2 which makes this clear...

Is that how you teach power students to
plan their crosscountry flights? "Just fly around and land at any
airport you happen to see out the window, that will count for your
preflight XC planning..."

Of course not G. LOL. I'm just trying to see where the verbiage is
for each of these tasks. Keep in mind, the free 3-TP tasks seem to
allow just that, and yes, one can plan for those too, so although
it doesn't apply to the non-free tasks, such an idea isn't so farfetched
when flying for free records. I've planned, gotten briefed, and flown to
20-30 airports in one day before. Duats makes this less complex to
plan and brief than one might imagine.

If I was flying the quite respectable distances you overachievers do,
I'd certainly have a standard duats course which included all the
airports that were potential landouts on the way. "Crosswind runway
closed for construction" is nice to know beforehand!

Why? THE WHOLE POINT IS TO DECLARE THE FLIGHT BEFORE YOU FLY IT, THEN
FLY IT! Otherwise, you are just wandering around. Nothing wrong with
that, but it isn't a declared badge flight.

True. Again 4.2.2 makes that clear.


Mark, read more Pez, wax up the PW-5, declare a task, then go fly it -
you'll feel a lot better afterwards.

Rereading Pez is funny too...and had some fun in house thermals
Saturday. Spring is a comin'

Oh, and when you land out, get a ground retrieve, not an aerotow -
your friends will appreciate the steak dinner.

Believe it or not, I got the wife and baby at the gliderport!
And they had a blast. I dunno about this ground retrieve idea tho,
sounds sketchy to me... ;(

Kirk
66

Mark
35 (but I tell everyone I'm 21)

--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA