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#11
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some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not
determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a thermal... unless of course the thermal was strong enough to cause "an upset".. and then they would still not recognize it as a thermal but a "wind gust" or even worse.." an air pocket ".. I did not know air had pockets... LOL BT "Mark James Boyd" wrote in message news:404e629e$1@darkstar... I've always just flown the direction of the lifted wing for the thermal. Sure, you could probably just do them all to the right, and it wouldn't make much difference, but if you ever competed, the extra falling out of the thermal and the confusion when joining others would be new. I personally don't like thermalling right turns, because of my power experience (left is best!), but when I look at my traces, I'm about 50/50. The reason many patterns are left, and right for helicopters, is because this is where the pilot has the seat and the best vis in side-by-side seating. In low vis circle-to-lands, it's nice to be on the correct side of the cockpit... In article , John wrote: This past year, I have stuck to a policy of making all thermal turns to the right only. The airport I fly out of has left turns in the pattern. My idea is I am developing the habit of turning slow to the right only. All left turns are made at higher pattern speeds. With the condition I am just recreationally flying locally (don't have to be that efficient and can burn a turn to center each thermal by going the "wrong way"), I found that thermaling for a while to the left, then landing made the high speed left turns in the pattern feel a bit "different". This was especially noticiable after not flying for awhile. The result was babying the plane thru the turns instead of "bank and yank". Does this make sense for low-time pilots, or pilots who take time off from flying occasionally? Seems like if you have not flown for awhile, then thermal a few dozen slow left turns, you would naturally tend to prefer slow left turns in the pattern. That is what you were just praticing to do, after all. Is there safety benefits to thermaling only to the right, and landing only with left turns? Will a pilot develop habits or preference for slow speed right turns and high speed left turns? John -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#12
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some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not
determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a therma I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach only works about half the time. Consider three sections of air: calm air, sink before a thermal, and the lift of the thermal itself. Imagine that you're flying along and you happen to run into the sink on the left wing and lift on the right wing (hand flying really helps here). In this case, the lifted wing approach would work; turning into the lifted wing would take you into the lift. Now consider if you're flying along and run into the calm air on the left wing and the sink on the right wing. If you use the lifted wing approach, you woud turn into the calm air and away from the lift! The best course would be to turn into the lowered wing, drive through the sink and on into the thermal. So, it really makes do difference which way you turn. It matters more how you respond to the conditions you experince when you make the turn. Jim Vincent CFIG N483SZ |
#13
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The reason many patterns are left, and right for helicopters, is
because this is where the pilot has the seat and the best vis in side-by-side seating. Really. I fly helicopters with the pilot seat on the right, Bells and helicopters where the pilot seat is on the left, MD's. We do not change our patterns depending on how the seat is loctated. The helicopter is to avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic, plus we do not need to fly the same type of pattern as a fixed wing aircraft, that is the reason for the type of patterns flown by helicopters. Craig "can turn either right or left" Shaber |
#14
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We had a helicopter gumming up the traffic pattern last weekend.. his
traffic pattern was about twice the extended downwind and long final that the tow plane and gliders were using. I think he got 1/2 the clue when a glider called and asked.. are you on downwind or cross country.. I'm not going that far from the airport for base leg, so I'm turning base behind you. And then on his next trip around the pattern, the tow plane called and stated, "Helicopter xyy, if your going that far out on final, I'll turn behind you and be down and clear before you can get back to the runway.", the other 1/2 of the clue. Granted it was student and instructor in the helicopter. But I know students in airplanes that don't log cross country on down wind. Helicopters here don't have the advantage of flying the "opposite direction pattern" to avoid other aircraft. We have parallel runways, and always have traffic turning either right or left for the right or left runway. Power on one side, gliders on the other, and the tow plane shares the glider operations. All uncontrolled and it works out well for the most part, until other powered aircraft try to mix it up in the glider pattern, and they forget who has right of way. But that happens mostly with transients, the local pilots know. BT BT The reason many patterns are left, and right for helicopters, is because this is where the pilot has the seat and the best vis in side-by-side seating. Really. I fly helicopters with the pilot seat on the right, Bells and helicopters where the pilot seat is on the left, MD's. We do not change our patterns depending on how the seat is loctated. The helicopter is to avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic, plus we do not need to fly the same type of pattern as a fixed wing aircraft, that is the reason for the type of patterns flown by helicopters. Craig "can turn either right or left" Shaber |
#15
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No offense to good ol' Tom, but the lift and sink that I have
encountered feel different. The sinking part of the thermal before the lift of the wing feels turbulent to me. It also seems to go from more sink to less sink. This is the opposite of a lift, where it goes from less lift to more lift. So when I feel a roll that goes from a high roll rate to a low roll rate, I am in the turbulent sink before the core of the thermal, and when I go from a low roll rate to a high roll rate, I know that wing is entering the core of the thermal and since it is the lifted wing, I turn into it, and into the thermal. I didn't even realise this is what I do and feel until I verbalized it just then. I must say that this "feel" has done very, very well for me. When I look at my traces, I turn immediately into the thermal and circle there effectively with little shift (no 270 degree turns or major corrections to the other side). This seems to work quite well, and consistently. Some of this was learned because I flew quite a few days in perfectly clear air. Other than the feel of the stick and the pitch and roll, I had no immediate indications of lift. The vario was just too coarse. In article , Jim Vincent wrote: some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a therma I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach only works about half the time. Consider three sections of air: calm air, sink before a thermal, and the lift of the thermal itself. Imagine that you're flying along and you happen to run into the sink on the left wing and lift on the right wing (hand flying really helps here). In this case, the lifted wing approach would work; turning into the lifted wing would take you into the lift. Now consider if you're flying along and run into the calm air on the left wing and the sink on the right wing. If you use the lifted wing approach, you woud turn into the calm air and away from the lift! The best course would be to turn into the lowered wing, drive through the sink and on into the thermal. So, it really makes do difference which way you turn. It matters more how you respond to the conditions you experince when you make the turn. Jim Vincent CFIG N483SZ -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#16
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In article ,
Shaber CJ wrote: The reason many patterns are left, and right for helicopters, is because this is where the pilot has the seat and the best vis in side-by-side seating. Really. I fly helicopters with the pilot seat on the right, Bells and helicopters where the pilot seat is on the left, MD's. We do not change our patterns depending on how the seat is loctated. The helicopter is to avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic, plus we do not need to fly the same type of pattern as a fixed wing aircraft, that is the reason for the type of patterns flown by helicopters. Craig "can turn either right or left" Shaber Change the verbiage to read "By happy coincidence, a lot of patterns in the US for airplane traffic are left patterns, and solo pilots and often PICs with passengers fly from the left seat and enjoy a better vis." "Also by happy coincidence, some helicopters avoiding the flow of fixed wing traffic might make right patterns and have the PIC or solo pilot in the right seat. This pilot might have better visibility." Whether there is causality or not is certainly arguable. I for one am happy with the coincidence... -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#17
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My experience is, I feel that I am entering sink before lift and have said
to myself many times 'there's the sink..' and the audio vario confirms it. Now the vario tells me less sink look for the lift...and that feeling in my butt tells me the same, I then wait for the wings to tell me which way to turn, it doesn't tell if by the time I decide if to turn if I did it to early or late. But the pundits would be dolphining and not turning anyway. "Mark James Boyd" wrote in message news:404eab8b$1@darkstar... No offense to good ol' Tom, but the lift and sink that I have encountered feel different. The sinking part of the thermal before the lift of the wing feels turbulent to me. It also seems to go from more sink to less sink. This is the opposite of a lift, where it goes from less lift to more lift. So when I feel a roll that goes from a high roll rate to a low roll rate, I am in the turbulent sink before the core of the thermal, and when I go from a low roll rate to a high roll rate, I know that wing is entering the core of the thermal and since it is the lifted wing, I turn into it, and into the thermal. I didn't even realise this is what I do and feel until I verbalized it just then. I must say that this "feel" has done very, very well for me. When I look at my traces, I turn immediately into the thermal and circle there effectively with little shift (no 270 degree turns or major corrections to the other side). This seems to work quite well, and consistently. Some of this was learned because I flew quite a few days in perfectly clear air. Other than the feel of the stick and the pitch and roll, I had no immediate indications of lift. The vario was just too coarse. In article , Jim Vincent wrote: some pilots are not "in the zone" with their gliders, and could not determine a "lifted wing" if they had rely on it to find a therma I was recently enlightened by Tom Knauff that the lifted wing approach only works about half the time. Consider three sections of air: calm air, sink before a thermal, and the lift of the thermal itself. Imagine that you're flying along and you happen to run into the sink on the left wing and lift on the right wing (hand flying really helps here). In this case, the lifted wing approach would work; turning into the lifted wing would take you into the lift. Now consider if you're flying along and run into the calm air on the left wing and the sink on the right wing. If you use the lifted wing approach, you woud turn into the calm air and away from the lift! The best course would be to turn into the lowered wing, drive through the sink and on into the thermal. So, it really makes do difference which way you turn. It matters more how you respond to the conditions you experince when you make the turn. Jim Vincent CFIG N483SZ -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#18
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I think someone already pointed out that the OFFICIAL guidance for helo pilots
when entering an airport area is "to aviod the flow of fixed wing traffic". Pretty much means to me that what I've always done when flying a helo is correct..I just avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic...seems to work out well for everyone! Who wants to spend all that extra time flyng a totally unnecessary traffic pattern anyway? As for the question of land left, thermal right....that certainly smacks of "rote learning", inflexibility, and of one who needs more training. Will all of your possible landouts work with that "land left" concept? Wouldn't you want to be as able to adapt safely and quickly to differing pattern requirements as you could possibly be? The airport where I fly gliders lands left traffic when landing south and southeast and then right traffic when landing north and northwest. What would a person that is only competent to "land left" do in this situation? Maybe fly only on days where the wind suits his preferred (and limited) landing abilities? |
#19
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The point I was making was is there benefits for low-time pilots to
thermal right and land left? Of course, this is not needed for super experienced pilots who have developed so much skill that they feel thermals and no longer need a vario, or fly helicopters when the lift is not that good because they have all this excess flying skill. I myself can turn equally well right or left. But I have noticed I prefer thermalling to the right, and landing to the left. Having over 250 flights, I have plenty of experience going both directions, but have developed preference for turning one way or another. (as an aside, I prefer left turns on my motorcycle too....no reason, just like them better). But for new pilots, experience is limited. So can habits be quickly developed to make fast turns when low, and slow turns when high, with the simple choice of turn direction? Seems like people do what they practice, so it would be hard to isolate the slow turns in a thermal with the faster turns while landing unless something fundamentally is different. Turn direction might be that difference. Of course, altitude should be the difference (the trees are bigger so go faster). But based on the number of crashes while landing, this seems not to be a good indicator that you can't go around the pattern like you have just been going around thermals. I propose a simple idea that turn direction might have some safety benefits. Any honest comment on the idea? I assume, once experience is gained, the low-time pilot will be equally good regardless of turn direction. Can the habit be broken then? Likely, but if the low-time pilot maintains a preference for turn direction while thermalling or landing, is that bad? I would suggest most of us have a preference eventually, so what is wrong with starting out with a specified turn preference being taught? |
#20
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"John" wrote in message om... The point I was making was is there benefits for low-time pilots to thermal right and land left? Sorry, John, the answer is no. Pilots, "low-time" or not, shouldn't even THINK about preferred turn directions whether in thermals or landing patterns. Absent a rigging error, (meaning the glider flies straight hands-off - not forgetting the wing pins) a pilots feeling that he has a "preferred turn direction" is a red flag warning of a general flying skill deficit that needs professional attention. Turns are the simplest and most essential maneuver in a glider pilots repertoire. If a pilot can't do those very, very well, in both directions, there is a big problem that very likely extends to other areas. Even if a pilot is otherwise safe, given the complexity of flying, there is no way to safely accommodate a turn preference. Turns, both left and right, should be totally instinctive and easy. BTW, I've come to really dislike the pejorative term "low-time pilots". I know many extremely skilled pilots with less than 200 hours and LOTS of "long-time" pilots whose flying skills have deteriorated to alarming levels. The later group seems to use the term a great deal. No matter how many years you have been flying, you are only as good as your last flight. Bill Daniels |
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