Thermal right, land left

I think you are missing the point that most people
have made about the PW5, those that aren't ignorant
anyway. The point is that it does not perform well
enough to justify the price tag. I cannot understand
the mentality of people who would rather fork out £20k+
for a sailplane with the performance only slightly
better than a K6e when they could get a second hand
LS4 or ASW20 for the same or less money! I would have
thought that a one-type class based on an existing
design (which could be very cheaply put back into production)
would make far more sense. After all, some of us can't
even afford a brand new PW5, but can afford an old
ratty ASW20 or LS4.
This is not about elitism in terms of money, its about
common sense and value for money. The PW5 has an abundance
of neither.
LS4 for the world class!

Jon Meyer wrote:

I cannot understand
the mentality of people who would rather fork out £20k+
for a sailplane with the performance only slightly
better than a K6e when they could get a second hand
LS4 or ASW20 for the same or less money!

While I agree that LS4 for the world class might have been the best
solution (provided production plans were made available to any builder
anywhere in the world), there are many countries mostly outside Europe
where good, used gliders are not available today, and importing from
Europe is not economical because of huge taxes and duties.

The PW5 isn't an appealing glider, but it's today the only
certificated glider you can build anywhere in the world. We must think
world-wise if we want to create an opportunity for development of the
sport.

Aldo Cernezzi

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:46:48 UTC, cernauta
wrote:

: We must think
: world-wise if we want to create an opportunity for development of the
: sport.

Why?

Ian
--

If PW-5 owners are really as content as they claim to be, why are they
so touchy and defensive?

I think it's pretty obvious that they are in denial. They invested in
these machines thinking that the world class would take off, and
instead it flopped, and they are stuck with these expensive fiberglass
lawn ornanments, and that reality is just too disturbing for them to
come to terms with. So they attack the messengers instead.

If PW-5'ers did more flying and less whining perhaps they could
convince us otherwise.

Jon Meyer wrote in message ...
I think you are missing the point that most people
have made about the PW5, those that aren't ignorant
anyway. The point is that it does not perform well
enough to justify the price tag. I cannot understand
the mentality of people who would rather fork out £20k+
for a sailplane with the performance only slightly
better than a K6e when they could get a second hand
LS4 or ASW20 for the same or less money! I would have
thought that a one-type class based on an existing
design (which could be very cheaply put back into production)
would make far more sense. After all, some of us can't
even afford a brand new PW5, but can afford an old
ratty ASW20 or LS4.
This is not about elitism in terms of money, its about
common sense and value for money. The PW5 has an abundance
of neither.
LS4 for the world class!

Liam Finley wrote:

If PW-5 owners are really as content as they claim to be, why are they
so touchy and defensive?

I think it's pretty obvious that they are in denial. They invested in
these machines thinking that the world class would take off, and
instead it flopped, and they are stuck with these expensive fiberglass
lawn ornanments, and that reality is just too disturbing for them to
come to terms with. So they attack the messengers instead.

It is a mistake to imagine the postings here come from PW5 owners in
general. Ironically, some (most?) of the defense of the class and glider
comes from pilots that don't even fly them, such as myself (I fly an 18
m motorglider).

I'm sure most of the PW5 owners are elsewhere, enjoying discussing the
gliders and World Class with people that believe in it. They aren't
here, because they've learned that it is a fool's errand to attempt
discussions with people that call their glider "rubbish". If people
called your glider that, you'd probably be a bit touchy, too. It makes
me irritable, and I don't even own one.

If you want to know what PW5 owners are doing, you'll have to go to
where they are.
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

(Liam Finley) wrote in message . com...
If PW-5 owners are really as content as they claim to be, why are they
so touchy and defensive?

I think it's pretty obvious that they are in denial. They invested in
these machines thinking that the world class would take off, and
instead it flopped, and they are stuck with these expensive fiberglass
lawn ornanments, and that reality is just too disturbing for them to
come to terms with. So they attack the messengers instead.

If PW-5'ers did more flying and less whining perhaps they could
convince us otherwise.

I don't own a Pw-5 in fact I was looking to buy an ASW-20 or Jantar
Std.3, anyhow believe me most of the Pw-5 pilots I know would not even
talk to you, not to mention "proving" you anything.

And you think that you can find a legitimate company that will make
LS-4 in the same price range? Where/how do I put down payment?!!

Jon Meyer wrote:

I think you are missing the point that most people
have made about the PW5, those that aren't ignorant
anyway. The point is that it does not perform well
enough to justify the price tag. I cannot understand
the mentality of people who would rather fork out £20k+
for a sailplane with the performance only slightly
better than a K6e when they could get a second hand
LS4 or ASW20 for the same or less money! I would have
thought that a one-type class based on an existing
design (which could be very cheaply put back into production)
would make far more sense. After all, some of us can't
even afford a brand new PW5, but can afford an old
ratty ASW20 or LS4.
This is not about elitism in terms of money, its about
common sense and value for money. The PW5 has an abundance
of neither.
LS4 for the world class!

Does the World really need ANOTHER Standard Class competition class?
That is what people seem to be proposing. This class would be nearly
identical to the current Standard Class, but with a little less
performance and a little less cost. Who would buy a new "LS4" when they
could buy a better performing used Discus for the same or less money,
just to compete in this class?

I think proposing more of what we already have will not bring new pilots
or new competitors into the sport, but merely divide them up between the
Standard Class and "LS4 Standard Class". I think the current World class
is bringing in pilots the other classes aren't; unfortunately, not in
the amounts hoped for. I think the _goals_ of the Word Class are good,
and the specifications appropriate to those goals.

People seem to forget that a new PW5 will become a used PW5. Many pilots
that will find a used PW5 much cheaper than a used LS4 or ASW 20, and
buy them because they can afford it. This is good for those people, and
good for the sport.

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

I'm just skimming these World Class angst threads, but perhaps someone
could enlighten me... When the competition was proposed back in the
early 90s, why didn't one of the major manufactures offer up a
standard class design for the competition? I know the answer, but
perhaps there are other answers I don't know.

Point is, Rolladen and Schempp and Glasser-Dirks and Schleicher
weren't interested, so the whining about new PeeWees versus used LS-4s
is not even academic. It's just plain silly. Clearly, none of the
major manufacturers was interested in having one of their designs
designated the World Class Glider.

Besides, you can buy a used LS-4 and compete in the club class. So why
even discuss the Peanut class? It is what it is. Don't like Peanuts?
Buy and LS-4 and race elsewhere...