Winch Experts wanted

mat Redsell wrote:
My statement was very confusing... what I really meant was without the winch
I think that we will be in troubles down the road for affordable tows....

And in part I do think that we have taken a wrong road with high wing
loading. for example with the Monarch we are able to tow it aloft with 160
lbs of tension at a speed of about 15 mph with a wind down the runway of
about 10 mph. This requires a very small rope and small horsepower.

http://www.continuo.com/marske/
look under articles for : ultralight design parameters design parameters of
the ultralight glider

I'd love to see a winch design that uses a 100hp or less engine,
can be easily bolted on the back of an old pickup, and has engine
and parts that are low maintenance and (especially engine) easy
to acquire (either locally or via shipping).

Alternately, how about a "spare tire" that is really a winch drum.
a stable sturdy "jack" and some way to route the cable
to ensure it winds up nice.

Might not work (thoughts of side loads tipping my car
over come to mind!), but it sure is fun to play with the
thuoght!
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:405aa3e8$1@darkstar...

I'd love to see a winch design that uses a 100hp or less engine,
can be easily bolted on the back of an old pickup, and has engine
and parts that are low maintenance and (especially engine) easy
to acquire (either locally or via shipping).

Alternately, how about a "spare tire" that is really a winch drum.
a stable sturdy "jack" and some way to route the cable
to ensure it winds up nice.

Might not work (thoughts of side loads tipping my car
over come to mind!), but it sure is fun to play with the
thuoght!
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Mark, unfortunately, the physics of a winch launch says that it takes about
1 kWh or 3,600,000 Joules to launch a glider. The peak power demand places
yet another constraint on the minimum HP that must be available. Those
numbers point to a 400 to 500 HP engine to be able to provide launch service
to any glider in the existing fleet. Although the initial cost of a well
engineered winch is high (nearly as much as a tow plane) the long term costs
are only a few percent as much a tug.

The good news is that the total energy consumed for one launch (About 1
liter of diesel fuel equivalent) is tiny compared to any other launch method
except bungee launch. (Excluding, of course, the beer you have to provide
the bungee crew.)

A glider winch is a highly specialized piece of machinery that needs the
kind of engineering Ulrich is asking for. Please avoid the temptation to
cobble some junk together to make a barely workable winch. That sort of
thing has given winch launch a bad name in the USA.

A well run winch operation is very attractive to newcomers to the sport. It
shows a lot of ground activity that is visible to the onlookers and the
rides are a real thrill. Lets get winching!

Bill Daniels

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:24:24 -0700, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:


"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:405aa3e8$1@darkstar...

I'd love to see a winch design that uses a 100hp or less engine,
can be easily bolted on the back of an old pickup, and has engine
and parts that are low maintenance and (especially engine) easy
to acquire (either locally or via shipping).

Alternately, how about a "spare tire" that is really a winch drum.
a stable sturdy "jack" and some way to route the cable
to ensure it winds up nice.

Might not work (thoughts of side loads tipping my car
over come to mind!), but it sure is fun to play with the
thuoght!
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Mark, unfortunately, the physics of a winch launch says that it takes about
1 kWh or 3,600,000 Joules to launch a glider. The peak power demand places
yet another constraint on the minimum HP that must be available. Those
numbers point to a 400 to 500 HP engine to be able to provide launch service
to any glider in the existing fleet. Although the initial cost of a well
engineered winch is high (nearly as much as a tow plane) the long term costs
are only a few percent as much a tug.

The good news is that the total energy consumed for one launch (About 1
liter of diesel fuel equivalent) is tiny compared to any other launch method
except bungee launch. (Excluding, of course, the beer you have to provide
the bungee crew.)

A glider winch is a highly specialized piece of machinery that needs the
kind of engineering Ulrich is asking for. Please avoid the temptation to
cobble some junk together to make a barely workable winch. That sort of
thing has given winch launch a bad name in the USA.

A well run winch operation is very attractive to newcomers to the sport. It
shows a lot of ground activity that is visible to the onlookers and the
rides are a real thrill. Lets get winching!

Bill Daniels

If you have a diesel driving through a fluid flywheel you don't need
that much power: we have a Supacat with a 245 hp Deutz V8 aircooled
industrial diesel and torque converter (no gearbox). This can launch
an ASH-25 or just about any Nimbus. With a 15 m glider, K-21 or Grob
you'd expect 1200-1400 ft on a 1000m run in calm conditions and over
2000 ft if its blowing a bit.

I'd agree with everything you've said about the specialised nature of
a glider winch, the heavy duty engineering and the costs.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

Martin Gregorie wrote:
If you have a diesel driving through a fluid flywheel you don't need
that much power: we have a Supacat with a 245 hp Deutz V8 aircooled
industrial diesel and torque converter (no gearbox). This can launch
an ASH-25 or just about any Nimbus. With a 15 m glider, K-21 or Grob
you'd expect 1200-1400 ft on a 1000m run in calm conditions and over
2000 ft if its blowing a bit.

I think the difference is that Bill is considering operating at much
higher density altitudes. In the western US, there are many glider
operations where summer density altitudes are in the 8000+ foot range.

Marc

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
. com...
I think the difference is that Bill is considering operating at much
higher density altitudes. In the western US, there are many glider
operations where summer density altitudes are in the 8000+ foot range.

Marc

Actually, most of the newer and larger diesels are turbocharged and have
electronic controls, including absolute manifold pressure sensors,
electronically controlled fuel injectors, and turbos with waste gates.
These engines will typically make full rated horsepower and torque at
density altitudes above 10,000 feet.

Electronically controlled engines also leave open the possibility of
controlling the engine without the typical manual input to the foot or hand
throttle. The foot pedal in that big diesel behind you on the freeway only
has copper wires between the foot pedal and the engine's ECU (electronic
control unit). It should be quite possible for someone (like you, Marc) to
program such an engine to desired and optimized parameters during each part
of the launch for each type of glider, with perhaps a hand control to
override the automatic settings. The ECU's on the engines already have
cruise control and PTO functions built in, as well as logger functions,
fault logging, fail soft ability, etc. Big trucks today have as much
electronics as cars.
-Bob Korves

Marc Ramsey wrote in message .com...
Martin Gregorie wrote:
If you have a diesel driving through a fluid flywheel you don't need
that much power: we have a Supacat with a 245 hp Deutz V8 aircooled
industrial diesel and torque converter (no gearbox). This can launch
an ASH-25 or just about any Nimbus. With a 15 m glider, K-21 or Grob
you'd expect 1200-1400 ft on a 1000m run in calm conditions and over
2000 ft if its blowing a bit.

I think the difference is that Bill is considering operating at much
higher density altitudes. In the western US, there are many glider
operations where summer density altitudes are in the 8000+ foot range.

Marc


So?
Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums, 1000m of steel
cable. This winch has handled everything including a 4DM. Even a
slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft MSL, has the
same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's heaven compared
to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.
BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of Diesel per launch.

Marcel Duenner wrote:


So?
Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums, 1000m of steel
cable. This winch has handled everything including a 4DM. Even a
slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft MSL, has the
same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's heaven compared
to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.
BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of Diesel per launch.

How much petrol per launch did the previous winch use? Is there a big
price difference between the two fuels?
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...
Marcel Duenner wrote:


So?
Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums, 1000m of steel
cable. This winch has handled everything including a 4DM. Even a
slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft MSL, has the
same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's heaven compared
to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.
BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of Diesel per launch.

How much petrol per launch did the previous winch use? Is there a big
price difference between the two fuels?

Don't know about theirs. The winch we had before this one was a 380hp
GM Engine, built about 1964. We used just under 1 litre of petrol with
that. Yes, they really swallow a lot at over 4000rpm.
Price difference between the two fuels is marginal here in
Switzerland, diesel being a bit more expensive most of the time. All
around us Diesel is much cheaper than Petrol.
Keep in mind that fuel prices in Europe are about four times the US
prices.
Also, as someone else already posted, fuel price is only one of many
things adding to the total launch cost.

(Marcel Duenner) wrote in message . com...
Marc Ramsey wrote in message .com...
Martin Gregorie wrote:
If you have a diesel driving through a fluid flywheel you don't need
that much power: we have a Supacat with a 245 hp Deutz V8 aircooled
industrial diesel and torque converter (no gearbox). This can launch
an ASH-25 or just about any Nimbus. With a 15 m glider, K-21 or Grob
you'd expect 1200-1400 ft on a 1000m run in calm conditions and over
2000 ft if its blowing a bit.

I think the difference is that Bill is considering operating at much
higher density altitudes. In the western US, there are many glider
operations where summer density altitudes are in the 8000+ foot range.

Marc


So?
Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums, 1000m of steel
cable. This winch has handled everything including a 4DM. Even a
slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft MSL, has the
same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's heaven compared
to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.

Just wondering if they had yanked out the engine in the "voluminous
petrol monster" and replaced it with some diesel engine would
they have had a "voluminous diesel monster" or would it have been
"heaven"? Point is there is much more to consider than just powerplant
when it comes to judging a machine. Chances are there are other things
to consider, like drivetrains, drums, to level wind or not, operator
comfort, control panels, comunications, cooling systems, maintainence,
portability, availability of parts, ect. ect. ect.

Craig-
BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of Diesel per launch.

"Craig Freeman" wrote in message
So?
Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums, 1000m of steel
cable. This winch has handled everything including a 4DM. Even a
slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft MSL, has the
same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's heaven compared
to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.

Just wondering if they had yanked out the engine in the "voluminous
petrol monster" and replaced it with some diesel engine would
they have had a "voluminous diesel monster" or would it have been
"heaven"? Point is there is much more to consider than just powerplant
when it comes to judging a machine. Chances are there are other things
to consider, like drivetrains, drums, to level wind or not, operator
comfort, control panels, comunications, cooling systems, maintainence,
portability, availability of parts, ect. ect. ect.

Craig-
BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of Diesel per launch.

Credit where credit is due.

Craig Freeman has actually built a winch - a damn good one - all by himself.
He gets my attention.

Bill Daniels