DO YOUR CONTOL CHECKS!

In article ,
Stewart Kissel wrote:

http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief2.asp?...0417&ntsbno=CH
I04CA090&akey=1

That looks more like: "if the manufacturer issues an AD [1], you'd
probably better do it, whether you legally have to or not".

-- Bruce

[1] in this case, installing a locking device onto L'Hotellier
connectors.

On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 11:40:06 +1200, Bruce Hoult
wrote:

In article ,
Stewart Kissel wrote:

http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief2.asp?...0417&ntsbno=CH
I04CA090&akey=1

That looks more like: "if the manufacturer issues an AD [1], you'd
probably better do it, whether you legally have to or not".

-- Bruce

[1] in this case, installing a locking device onto L'Hotellier
connectors.

This is the subject of a BGA AD in 1993 for the ASW-20, so I don't see
where you get the "manufacturer AD" bit from, even though it does
appear in ASW-20 TN-17 on extending the service life beyond 3000
hours.

As the AD in question refers to the requirement for a locking pin in
the Hotellier, I'm a bit gobsmacked that these couplings could ever
have been used without a locking pin or shroud: there's no way you
could inspect the check hole after assembly (other than poking
something through it) on wing control circuits in the ASW-20 and other
gliders. Admittedly you can see the check hole for the elevator, but
that's the only one that is easy to check by inspection on a '20.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

I saw this exact thing happen at Stennis field, Bay St Louis, MS, in the
early 80's. The pilot was the best at the field, at least he was the only
one who flew in competitions. He and his wife both flew ASW-20's.

He assembled one day, began his aerotow, nose went up like he was on a
winch/auto tow, and he released at perhaps 40 or 50 feet.

His wife's back was turned, as she gathered dolly, etc that needed to be
stowed. She missed the whole thing. I was sure I was watching a low level
stall/spin happening before my eyes.

Then the nose came down, then back up again, then down again, and at the
bottom of one of these oscillations his wheel touched down, he dumped the
flaps and he got on the brakes and stayed down. Stopped a couple of feet
from the airport fence.

Turns out his elevator hadn't been hooked up, or had popped off between
assembly and tow. He claimed that he had been able to control pitch with the
flaps, but I (personal opinion, no data to back this up) think he just got
incredibly lucky.

The best news: no damage to aircraft or pilot.

The absolute most amazing thing: He walked the -20 back to the launch point,
Inspected it for damage (found none), hooked up the elevator, and promptly
took off. I'd have been shaking for a week after a near miss like that, not
have taken off within 15 minutes.

Long way of saying that I agree: DO YOUR CONTROL CHECKS!


On 4/4/04 2:58 PM, in article ,
"Martin Gregorie" wrote:

On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 11:40:06 +1200, Bruce Hoult
wrote:

In article ,
Stewart Kissel wrote:

http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief2.asp?...0417&ntsbno=CH
I04CA090&akey=1

That looks more like: "if the manufacturer issues an AD [1], you'd
probably better do it, whether you legally have to or not".

-- Bruce

[1] in this case, installing a locking device onto L'Hotellier
connectors.

This is the subject of a BGA AD in 1993 for the ASW-20, so I don't see
where you get the "manufacturer AD" bit from, even though it does
appear in ASW-20 TN-17 on extending the service life beyond 3000
hours.

As the AD in question refers to the requirement for a locking pin in
the Hotellier, I'm a bit gobsmacked that these couplings could ever
have been used without a locking pin or shroud: there's no way you
could inspect the check hole after assembly (other than poking
something through it) on wing control circuits in the ASW-20 and other
gliders. Admittedly you can see the check hole for the elevator, but
that's the only one that is easy to check by inspection on a '20.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

I know of a case here in NZ exactly the same ,very high hours competition
pilot distracted during rigging, took off and released very quickly and
landed
straight ahead in a paddock using flaps only to control pitch.
The ASW20 seems relatively benign in this mode because I have heard of other
cases
I have an interest in this "because"
My ASW20 will be here soon ,Yippee!!!!
gary


"Bullwinkle" wrote in message
...
I saw this exact thing happen at Stennis field, Bay St Louis, MS, in the
early 80's. The pilot was the best at the field, at least he was the only
one who flew in competitions. He and his wife both flew ASW-20's.

He assembled one day, began his aerotow, nose went up like he was on a
winch/auto tow, and he released at perhaps 40 or 50 feet.

His wife's back was turned, as she gathered dolly, etc that needed to be
stowed. She missed the whole thing. I was sure I was watching a low level
stall/spin happening before my eyes.

Then the nose came down, then back up again, then down again, and at the
bottom of one of these oscillations his wheel touched down, he dumped the
flaps and he got on the brakes and stayed down. Stopped a couple of feet
from the airport fence.

Turns out his elevator hadn't been hooked up, or had popped off between
assembly and tow. He claimed that he had been able to control pitch with
the
flaps, but I (personal opinion, no data to back this up) think he just got
incredibly lucky.

The best news: no damage to aircraft or pilot.

The absolute most amazing thing: He walked the -20 back to the launch
point,
Inspected it for damage (found none), hooked up the elevator, and promptly
took off. I'd have been shaking for a week after a near miss like that,
not
have taken off within 15 minutes.

Long way of saying that I agree: DO YOUR CONTROL CHECKS!


On 4/4/04 2:58 PM, in article ,
"Martin Gregorie" wrote:

On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 11:40:06 +1200, Bruce Hoult
wrote:

In article ,
Stewart Kissel wrote:

http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief2.asp?...0417&ntsbno=CH
I04CA090&akey=1

That looks more like: "if the manufacturer issues an AD [1], you'd
probably better do it, whether you legally have to or not".

-- Bruce

[1] in this case, installing a locking device onto L'Hotellier
connectors.

This is the subject of a BGA AD in 1993 for the ASW-20, so I don't see
where you get the "manufacturer AD" bit from, even though it does
appear in ASW-20 TN-17 on extending the service life beyond 3000
hours.

As the AD in question refers to the requirement for a locking pin in
the Hotellier, I'm a bit gobsmacked that these couplings could ever
have been used without a locking pin or shroud: there's no way you
could inspect the check hole after assembly (other than poking
something through it) on wing control circuits in the ASW-20 and other
gliders. Admittedly you can see the check hole for the elevator, but
that's the only one that is easy to check by inspection on a '20.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

goneill wrote:
I know of a case here in NZ exactly the same ,very high hours competition
pilot distracted during rigging, took off and released very quickly and
landed
straight ahead in a paddock using flaps only to control pitch.
The ASW20 seems relatively benign in this mode because I have heard of other
cases

Well, "benign" is perhaps not the word. But that aside I'd expect it
to depend a lot on CG position whether there is a chance to control it
with flaps alone, or not.

CV (also an ASW20)

Bullwinkle wrote:

The absolute most amazing thing: He walked the -20 back to the launch point,
Inspected it for damage (found none), hooked up the elevator, and promptly
took off. I'd have been shaking for a week after a near miss like that, not
have taken off within 15 minutes.

I can't believe it! No one asked him to sit down a bit and think about
what he made? The towpilot also could be killed so I think this action
should be investigated a bit more than this...

/Janos

On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 10:06:28 +0200, Janos Bauer
wrote:


I can't believe it! No one asked him to sit down a bit and think about
what he made? The towpilot also could be killed so I think this action
should be investigated a bit more than this...

I guess he got the message...


Bye
Andreas

What is more surprising is that the towpilot
let him hook up again. I sure wouldn't tow him again until
I had at least a long talk and a day later. I wonder
if the tuggie even knew there had been a problem?

Janos Bauer wrote:
Bullwinkle wrote:

The absolute most amazing thing: He walked the -20 back to the launch point,
Inspected it for damage (found none), hooked up the elevator, and promptly
took off. I'd have been shaking for a week after a near miss like that, not
have taken off within 15 minutes.

I can't believe it! No one asked him to sit down a bit and think about
what he made? The towpilot also could be killed so I think this action
should be investigated a bit more than this...

/Janos


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Yes, the towpilot knew. He was doing a bit of shaking himself, having just
nearly had his nose driven into the ground. Yet, he, too, drove on that day.

As I remember it (this was over 20 years ago) the towpilot made a pattern,
landed, towed a couple of other gliders, and then the -20 driver was ready
to go again.

Janos and Mark raise an interesting point, though: this was a highly thought
of pilot, the only one who regularly entered competitions. He went cross
country just about every time he towed, when the rest of us were beating the
towplane back to the ground. Thus, he was widely perceived as the best pilot
on the site. Who would have been in a position to sit him down and have the
"come to Jesus" talk he so richly deserved? Thinking back on it, the
"culture" at that gliderport just wouldn't have supported it.

I wonder how many other places have hot pilots, who are untouchable because
of their exalted status as hot sticks? I'm sure they're immune from making
basic errors due to their overall excellence, but who among us would dare to
counsel Moffatt, Striedieck, Payne, or Knauff if we saw them doing stupid
things at our field? Or harder still, at their home fields? (Again, I'm sure
none of the legends mentioned would ever deserve counseling, just using
their exalted names as examples: no offense intended or implied.)

Food for thought.

On 4/5/04 2:19 PM, in article 4071b12e$1@darkstar, "Mark James Boyd"
wrote:

What is more surprising is that the towpilot
let him hook up again. I sure wouldn't tow him again until
I had at least a long talk and a day later. I wonder
if the tuggie even knew there had been a problem?

Janos Bauer wrote:
Bullwinkle wrote:

The absolute most amazing thing: He walked the -20 back to the launch point,
Inspected it for damage (found none), hooked up the elevator, and promptly
took off. I'd have been shaking for a week after a near miss like that, not
have taken off within 15 minutes.

I can't believe it! No one asked him to sit down a bit and think about
what he made? The towpilot also could be killed so I think this action
should be investigated a bit more than this...

/Janos


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Bullwinkle wrote:
Yes, the towpilot knew. He was doing a bit of shaking himself, having just
nearly had his nose driven into the ground. Yet, he, too, drove on that day.

As I remember it (this was over 20 years ago) the towpilot made a pattern,
landed, towed a couple of other gliders, and then the -20 driver was ready
to go again.

Janos and Mark raise an interesting point, though: this was a highly thought
of pilot, the only one who regularly entered competitions. He went cross
country just about every time he towed, when the rest of us were beating the
towplane back to the ground. Thus, he was widely perceived as the best pilot
on the site. Who would have been in a position to sit him down and have the
"come to Jesus" talk he so richly deserved?

What talk did he deserve? If he repeated the bad procedures the next
week, yes, but what made you think he hadn't learned a valuable lesson?
Perhaps he'd already determined the cause and the solution by the time
he'd pushed the glider back to the launch point. What makes you think he
would repeat that mistake?

Not everyone is rattled by a mistake, even a potentially lethal one.
Some can analyze it, correct it, and move on. I've seen good pilots do
this in minutes, not days.

Thinking back on it, the
"culture" at that gliderport just wouldn't have supported it.

A way to start might have been "Wow, that was close! How are you going
to avoid that in the future?" Perhaps the club missed an opportunity to
see how mistakes should be handled, and possibly a good pilot didn't get
some questioning he needed.

--
-----
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA