Sukhoi PAK-FA ?

----------
In article , "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

Well, what is really strange that Russia has enough money (due to high
oil prices) to spend on military acquisitions..

What acquisitions? They have been buying danged little in the lines of new
equipment over the last ten years or so. In the aircraft sector, their
emphasis has been almost solely on export production; domestic work has
largely been limited to some upgrade work, and they have been having a hard
time paying for even *that*. A 2002 study indicated that Russia was putting
about 7.5% of the funds into aircraft development/production that they had
committed during the Soviet era--that level of funding is not going to
stretch very far.

Where is that second large (by their standards) aircraft carrier they built
going? India. Where are the Su-30's going? India, China, etc. So what are
these "military acquisitions" for domestic use that you speak of?

Before getting snarky, it helps to count to ten.

Notice that he said that they have enough money to _spend_ on acquisitions,
not that they are actually acquiring anything.




D

"D" wrote in message
nk.net...
----------
In article , "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

Well, what is really strange that Russia has enough money (due to high
oil prices) to spend on military acquisitions..

What acquisitions? They have been buying danged little in the lines of
new
equipment over the last ten years or so. In the aircraft sector, their
emphasis has been almost solely on export production; domestic work has
largely been limited to some upgrade work, and they have been having a
hard
time paying for even *that*. A 2002 study indicated that Russia was
putting
about 7.5% of the funds into aircraft development/production that they
had
committed during the Soviet era--that level of funding is not going to
stretch very far.

Where is that second large (by their standards) aircraft carrier they
built
going? India. Where are the Su-30's going? India, China, etc. So what are
these "military acquisitions" for domestic use that you speak of?

Before getting snarky, it helps to count to ten.

Notice that he said that they have enough money to _spend_ on
acquisitions,
not that they are actually acquiring anything.

Well, Mr. Snarky, the fact is that they *don't* have the money to spend--or
have you missed their gyrations with executing more and more "barter"
exchanges of late?

Brooks





D

----------
In article , "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

Well, what is really strange that Russia has enough money (due to high
oil prices) to spend on military acquisitions..

Well, Mr. Snarky, the fact is that they *don't* have the money to spend--or
have you missed their gyrations with executing more and more "barter"
exchanges of late?

Do you actually read newspapers?

As the original poster noted, higher oil prices have helped the Russians out
a lot, bringing in a lot more revenue than only a couple of years ago.

A big problem with the Russian economy is that people don't pay their taxes,
so the government has been cash poor. But they do have a major asset in oil
resources, and when oil prices go up, more money pours into the treasury.

So the original poster was right--their revenues have gone up because of
increased oil prices.




D

"D" wrote in message
ink.net...
----------
In article , "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

Well, what is really strange that Russia has enough money (due to high
oil prices) to spend on military acquisitions..

Well, Mr. Snarky, the fact is that they *don't* have the money to
spend--or
have you missed their gyrations with executing more and more "barter"
exchanges of late?

Do you actually read newspapers?

As the original poster noted, higher oil prices have helped the Russians
out
a lot, bringing in a lot more revenue than only a couple of years ago.

A big problem with the Russian economy is that people don't pay their
taxes,
so the government has been cash poor. But they do have a major asset in
oil
resources, and when oil prices go up, more money pours into the treasury.

So the original poster was right--their revenues have gone up because of
increased oil prices.


However the OP also claimed those revenues were available
for weapons purchases. This does not follow, in fact the total
funding for the Russian armed forces in 2004 was $14 billion.
Of that only $4 billion was earmarked for purchases and that
is for all 3 services.

Compared with the defence budgets of the USA ($417 billion),
or even the UK ($55 billion) this isnt going to buy
a lot of development.

Keith




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"Keith W" wrote in message
...

"D" wrote in message
ink.net...
----------
In article , "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

Well, what is really strange that Russia has enough money (due to
high
oil prices) to spend on military acquisitions..

Well, Mr. Snarky, the fact is that they *don't* have the money to
spend--or
have you missed their gyrations with executing more and more "barter"
exchanges of late?

Do you actually read newspapers?

As the original poster noted, higher oil prices have helped the Russians
out
a lot, bringing in a lot more revenue than only a couple of years ago.

A big problem with the Russian economy is that people don't pay their
taxes,
so the government has been cash poor. But they do have a major asset in
oil
resources, and when oil prices go up, more money pours into the treasury.

So the original poster was right--their revenues have gone up because of
increased oil prices.


However the OP also claimed those revenues were available
for weapons purchases. This does not follow, in fact the total
funding for the Russian armed forces in 2004 was $14 billion.
Of that only $4 billion was earmarked for purchases and that
is for all 3 services.

Compared with the defence budgets of the USA ($417 billion),
or even the UK ($55 billion) this isnt going to buy
a lot of development.

To put it into perspective against the exported energy values, the estimated
total export volume for Russia in 2004 was about $182 billion (according to
a US DOE estimate), of which some 55% was credited to the energy sector. So
if the Russians put every penny they got from oil/gas/coal/electric exports
into their defense budget (a ludicrous assumption, as a good chunk of that
money is now going to a Russian hedge fund designed to allow it to survive
downward fluctuations in the oil price--apparently they have accrued some
$16 or $17 billion in that account since its inception in JAN 2004), it
would still be less than 25% of the US amount.

www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/russia.html

www.citibank.ru/russia/pdf/eng/bal_rus2004.pdf

Brooks


Keith

----------
In article , "Keith W"
wrote:

However the OP also claimed those revenues were available
for weapons purchases. This does not follow, in fact the total
^^^^^^^^^

Compared with the defence budgets of the USA ($417 billion),
or even the UK ($55 billion) this isnt going to buy
a lot of development.
^^^^^^^^^^^

He was not discussing "development" but "acquisitions" (i.e. "purchases").
Their equipment is relatively cheap to buy compared to the US.

What we're discussing is theoretical, and in that regard the original poster
was right--the increase in Russian oil revenues _should_ make more money
available for buying weapons. But they are not really doing that.




D

"D" wrote in message
nk.net...
----------
In article , "Keith W"
wrote:

However the OP also claimed those revenues were available
for weapons purchases. This does not follow, in fact the total
^^^^^^^^^

Compared with the defence budgets of the USA ($417 billion),
or even the UK ($55 billion) this isnt going to buy
a lot of development.
^^^^^^^^^^^

He was not discussing "development" but "acquisitions" (i.e. "purchases").
Their equipment is relatively cheap to buy compared to the US.


The subject line is the Sukhoi PAK-FA - a system IN DEVELOPMENT

Duh !

What we're discussing is theoretical, and in that regard the original
poster
was right--the increase in Russian oil revenues _should_ make more money
available for buying weapons. But they are not really doing that.


Only if the government had no other calls on the money, it does.
Quite correctly (IMHO) they have decided that paying the wages
of the people who work for them and getting the healthcare
system at least to a level where Russia no longer has
one of the worst mortality rates outside the third world are
rather more important than developing 5th gen fighters.

Keith

Keith W wrote:
"D" wrote in message
nk.net...

----------
In article , "Keith W"
wrote:


However the OP also claimed those revenues were available
for weapons purchases. This does not follow, in fact the total

^^^^^^^^^


Compared with the defence budgets of the USA ($417 billion),
or even the UK ($55 billion) this isnt going to buy
a lot of development.

^^^^^^^^^^^

He was not discussing "development" but "acquisitions" (i.e. "purchases").
Their equipment is relatively cheap to buy compared to the US.



The subject line is the Sukhoi PAK-FA - a system IN DEVELOPMENT

Duh !


What we're discussing is theoretical, and in that regard the original
poster
was right--the increase in Russian oil revenues _should_ make more money
available for buying weapons. But they are not really doing that.



Only if the government had no other calls on the money, it does.
Quite correctly (IMHO) they have decided that paying the wages
of the people who work for them and getting the healthcare
system at least to a level where Russia no longer has
one of the worst mortality rates outside the third world are
rather more important than developing 5th gen fighters.

Keith


But i wonder what a fully funded Sukhoi or Mig could produce?
They seem to have done a lot on table scraps.........

Bob

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1.
But they are not really doing that.
And question is why?!

2.
Compared with the defence budgets of the USA ($417 billion),
or even the UK ($55 billion) this isnt going to buy
a lot of development.

You should see this page re Russian Economy
http://www.warfare.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57

3.
Do you have any information about Tu-202 stealth bomber?

"forties" wrote in message
oups.com...
1.
But they are not really doing that.

And question is why?!

Because they have much more pressing needs for every ruble in hard cash they
can get.


2.
Compared with the defence budgets of the USA ($417 billion),
or even the UK ($55 billion) this isnt going to buy
a lot of development.

You should see this page re Russian Economy
http://www.warfare.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57

3.
Do you have any information about Tu-202 stealth bomber?

Another stillborn paper concept, from what I gather. The only projects the
Russians have made any progress on are the ones that offer significant
export potential (like the spirals for the MiG-29, Su-27, and Su-30) or the
ones that they can get foreign development capital to support. They are
scratching hard to try and meet their obligations for the An-70 project, and
are behind the power curve on that one already. The single project aimed at
production to meet significant domestic needs that they have pursued of late
appears to be their new trainer/lead-in-fighter-trainer project. As Keith
quite accurately pointed out, their defense budget just will not support any
major new combat aircraft development right now, with the exception of those
programs they may jointly pursue with India and/or China.

Brooks