How Low to Spin??

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:412fa9ba$1@darkstar...
Kirk Stant wrote:

1) If they ain't locked for takeoff, a gnarly pio

1. Use a checklist. Oh, and why is the tow pilot fanning his rudder
at me?

LOL! "use a checklist."
Kind of covers everything, huh?

"Oh yeah? He had an accident? I bet he
didn't use the checklist!"

So Mark, you don't use any checklist before taking off? Yeah right,
bull****. What is it, not macho enough for you?

I use CBSIFTCBE (instead of the useless SSA ABCCCDDEEEEFGHHHwhatever)
RELIGIOUSLY before every takeoff. It's as sacred as the old GUMP
checklist. No paper required, only need one brain cell awake to run
it. And even with that, I've managed to get airborne twice with my
spoilers unlocked - in an LS4 and my current LS6. Both due to
interrupted/rushed launches. No big deal, the tow didn't even notice
(because LS brakes don't suck open, they just stay cracked) the
decreased climb rate. I caught them both below 100', closed the
boards, swore a bunch, then went on to convincingly blow the task of
the day.

Seriously, if your students aren't going through a "last chance" check
before commiting to takeoff, they have really bad instructors, to say
the least. And that is "using a checklist". And it will usually
prevent brainfade idiotic accidents from happening. Usually.

Kirk

The discussion of a) overly-long checklists that don't get used and,
on the other hand, b) the need for checklists reminds me of a
discussion with a power instructor (instrument), who made a
distinction I hadn't encountered before, but it made sense. He
distinguished between a written procedure, a written checklist and an
oral checklist. Here's the idea:

Written procedu a written sequence of steps to take.
Written checklist: a written list of things to check.
Oral checklist: a memorized checklist. Should be very short, and
memorable, used only for a few last-minute and "death/destruction"
items.

A written procedure may be quite long and can be detailed. It may
contain some lower-importance items. It is used for setting up the
aircraft and should be used when there is time for it. Sitting next
in line for takeoff on the runway, barreling down final approach, or
right after a rope break - not good times for a written procedure.

A written checklist may also be quite long. Often it's the same as
the procedure list, but it should contain only short reminders of only
the important items: its purpose is to confirm that the aircraft is
already properly set up. Written checklists should also be used when
there is time for them. They provide a double-check; their
disadvantage is that they rarely identify anything wrong, so human
nature makes it easy to miss something. It's mostly for that reason
that a checklist should be as short as possible and should stick to
truly important items: no zipper-checks.

In 2-pilot operations, the written procedure and checklist can be
combined in a single document, but the functions are separated by the
challenge-response between the two pilots. For single pilot
operation, this instructor did NOT like the approach of
read-it-do-it-confirm-it all in one pass. It's too easy to either
skip a line, or skip an action (to avoid missing a line, pilots have a
tendency to touch the control but keep their eyes on the list, so they
don't actually confirm the step or even think about what they're
doing). Hence his preference for separating the roles of the two
pilots - read it (copilot role), do it (pilot role), check it (copilot
role) - into entirely separate sequences.

An oral checklist should be short and memorable. It should contain
only last-minute items and the few items most likely to cause death
and/or destruction. It can be used when the pilot is busy, because
it's short and doesn't require reading. In fact, busy moments - when
something may get overlooked - can be a good place to insert one! The
takeoff and landing checklists are the best examples.

I'm still working on how this translates for gliders. I think those
long checklists ("zipper check / chewing gum quantity check / attach
tow rope") are actually procedures: most pilots probably don't need to
keep using the written version (how likely is it that you'll forget to
attach the tow rope? - and if you do, what will happen?). Shorter
checklists have their place - "task set up on the nav computer" - but
probably should be done before you become #1 in line for takeoff. And
oral checklists should be used right before takeoff
("brakes-trim-belts" or whatever) and landing (USTALL, or your own
favorite) as a last-minute confirmation that nothing really stupid is
going to cause something really bad.

There's a somewhat separate question of what the right contents for
the procedures and checklists should be!

There's a somewhat separate question of what the right contents for
the procedures and checklists should be!

With apologies to pilots whose memories never fail even under stress,
I'm one of those guys who does use a very detailed written checklist.
Chewing gum isn't on it but things like food, drinking water, reading
glasses, and landout jacket are. But I don't wait until I'm #1 on the
takeoff line to use it.

One reason is that it's in sections. The first and longest section is
the post-assembly checklist with all the stuff on the glider, arranged
in the proper walkaround order. I can do that immediately after
rigging. Then there's another list of all the stuff that should be in
the cockpit--things that wouldn't kill me if I forgot but which might
make life less comfortable.

Then there are sections for task items (applies only to contests: task
sheet, retrieve telephone #, etc.), on the grid (tail dolly, etc.),
and pre-takeoff (I use the very old SSA A-B-C-C-C-D sequence that I
committed to memory back in the mid 1960s).

I've got a section for landing out: remove multi-probe, download trace
to CF card, etc., since in the pre-cellular world I once got to a pay
telephone without my wallet or the retrieve #.

There's even a section for my crew to use for hooking up the trailer.

I keep a copy in the cockpit at all times. If I do things out of
sequence, I literally check off each item with a pencil. On a normal
day at the gliderport, I just run my thumb down the list and make sure
I'm not interrupted during one of the sections.

OK, maybe this is overkill. But whether I'm crewless or accompanied by
my wife and two 10-year-old daughters, it seems like I'm always rushed
before takeoff. Having a written checklist not only guarantees I won't
forget something but gives me peace of mind when I launch that I've
done everything right and lets me focus on flying safely.

And in the post-Clem Bowman/Genesis accident era, it gives my family
the same peace of mind. I'll confess that in the past 40 years, I've
taken off without my map (pre-GPS days), with my dive brakes open,
without taping, and with a landing gear door hanging loose. And that
doesn't count the time I was on the line ready to launch with the tail
dolly still attached.

It's fun to scoff about obsessive/compulsive types reaching for their
checklist and pencil during a spin recovery. But I'll continue to
use my written checklist before every flight, as I noted in the safety
talk I gave at this year's U.S. Standard Class Nationals.

Chip Bearden

In article ,
Finbar wrote:
The discussion of a) overly-long checklists that don't get used and,
on the other hand, b) the need for checklists reminds me of a
discussion with a power instructor (instrument), who made a
distinction I hadn't encountered before, but it made sense. He
distinguished between a written procedure, a written checklist and an
oral checklist. Here's the idea:

Written procedu a written sequence of steps to take.
Written checklist: a written list of things to check.
Oral checklist: a memorized checklist. Should be very short, and
memorable, used only for a few last-minute and "death/destruction"
items.

A written procedure may be quite long and can be detailed. It may
contain some lower-importance items. It is used for setting up the
aircraft and should be used when there is time for it. Sitting next
in line for takeoff on the runway, barreling down final approach, or
right after a rope break - not good times for a written procedure.

One other item. I've found that numbering the written checklist
helps. Then, even solo, I read it aloud. I read "1", and aloud
then I do "2". I've found that if I skip a step, my brain goes
instantly "3 isn't after 1!" and I'm saved.

Again, I also prioritize it. This makes for an awkward flow
in some aircraft, but I can repeat items to get a good flow.

Anyway, all good stuff...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

In article ,
Kirk Stant wrote:
(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:412fa9ba$1@darkstar...
Kirk Stant wrote:

1) If they ain't locked for takeoff, a gnarly pio

1. Use a checklist. Oh, and why is the tow pilot fanning his rudder
at me?

LOL! "use a checklist."
Kind of covers everything, huh?

"Oh yeah? He had an accident? I bet he
didn't use the checklist!"

So Mark, you don't use any checklist before taking off? Yeah right,
bull****. What is it, not macho enough for you?

Kirk. I am very sorry that this appeared to be a condemnation of
checklists. It was not, and in fact my intetion was to strongly
support the significance of what you and others have stated. The
elevator connection on preflight, and the dive brakes closed, as you
mention, are very important.

I was simply pointing out that the bland assertion that one should
"use a checklist" can actually cause an accident. If the pilot
now uses that to (wrongly) make a checklist which is very long and
does not prioritize the importance of the items, it can cause
fatigue and inattention.

So yes, I certainly use a checklist, but I ALWAYS use a
prioritized checklist. And I teach students how to make a custom
prioritized checklist for a new aircraft by looking at the
accident reports and starting with that.

Again, Kirk, I apologise if this seemed offensive. I was
only wanting to gently steer us into a more detailed discussion.

I use CBSIFTCBE (instead of the useless SSA ABCCCDDEEEEFGHHHwhatever)
RELIGIOUSLY before every takeoff. It's as sacred as the old GUMP
checklist. No paper required, only need one brain cell awake to run
it. And even with that, I've managed to get airborne twice with my
spoilers unlocked - in an LS4 and my current LS6. Both due to
interrupted/rushed launches. No big deal, the tow didn't even notice
(because LS brakes don't suck open, they just stay cracked) the
decreased climb rate. I caught them both below 100', closed the
boards, swore a bunch, then went on to convincingly blow the task of
the day.

So CBSIFTCBE. Ok, what are the top 3? Is spoilers locked one
of the top 3 for you? I'm just saying put that one as the FIRST
item, instead of elsewhere if a) it is the number one checklist item
cause of fatal accidents in the type of glider you fly where you fly it
and b) if it is something that you tend to miss more often than other
items. At Truckee, maybe the low rope break briefing is more
important than the trim set. In the PW-5 at Avenal, maybe the
spoilers locked is more important than the emerg. brief. If
the student often reaches out to close the vent on takeoff and this
makes a PIO, then for him, maybe the vent closed for takeoff is the
number one item.

I simply do not believe that there is a correct ordering, or a
correct checklist that can work for all gliderports and all pilots
and all aircraft. I strongly believe in prioritized, personal
checklists. The checklist, and the process to make it, are
really important.

Seriously, if your students aren't going through a "last chance" check
before commiting to takeoff, they have really bad instructors, to say
the least. And that is "using a checklist". And it will usually
prevent brainfade idiotic accidents from happening. Usually.

I agree with you Kirk, just in a little more detail...ok?
Thanks for the responses...and again sorry if it looked like
I was pickin' on you...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA