How Low to Spin??

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:51:22 UTC, (Mark James
Boyd) wrote:

: And yes, the 200 word abstract is first.
: I'd like to see all writing (including the checklists) follow this
: idea. A few important points at the front, the nit details at the back.

You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in the
UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't normally
think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all,
"lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who
need a mnemonic to remind them to look out...

Which is not to say that a /short/ list isn't useful, but sticking
more and more things on is just silly. Check lists are not operating
manuals.

Ian

--

I quite like the "lookout" element of USTALL (though I don't actually chant
the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it for is a reminder that,
in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay attention to the other
side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight in approaches, and
look at what's happening on the ground. This is a different mode of lookout
to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout" at
some point to remind me of the change of mode.

But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout except in response to a
checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the sky.

S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto, and A
(airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble,
though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever on the same side as
the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note to check which lever I
intended to use for approach control.

U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and
hoping not to do it again.

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost...
You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in the
UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't normally
think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all,
"lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who
need a mnemonic to remind them to look out...

Is this a troll?

Personally I can't believe a UK basic instructor is saying this publicly.
Are you still giving ab-initio lessons? Perhaps you should chant this, or
something like WULFSTALL, in the circuit and think about what each item is
and what the implications are if you don't do each one. You seem to already
know about one, but the others are so embarassing they can kill you.
Doubtless you do this appropriately during your annual club checks, but lack
of clarity of what each item reflects or the need is disturbing. Please
re-read your post, print a copy and hand carry it to your CFI at Rattlesden.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

"Chris Reed" wrote in message
...
I quite like the "lookout" element of USTALL (though I don't actually
chant
the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it for is a reminder that,
in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay attention to the
other
side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight in approaches,
and
look at what's happening on the ground. This is a different mode of
lookout
to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout" at
some point to remind me of the change of mode.

But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout except in response to
a
checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the sky.

S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto, and A
(airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble,
though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever on the same side as
the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note to check which lever I
intended to use for approach control.

U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and
hoping not to do it again.

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost...
You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in the
UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't normally
think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all,
"lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who
need a mnemonic to remind them to look out...

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 16:16:30 UTC, "F.L. Whiteley"
wrote:

: Personally I can't believe a UK basic instructor is saying this publicly.
: Are you still giving ab-initio lessons? Perhaps you should chant this, or
: something like WULFSTALL, in the circuit and think about what each item is
: and what the implications are if you don't do each one.

There is a lot of honest debate about how many of these are truly
necessary. For example, is your "W" for wind? If so, it should have
been checked a hell of a long time before trying to join the
"circuit". And if it has been, and the circuit planned to take account
of it, why specifically check again? Doesn't the practice of good
airmanship imply that this will be done anyway?

Similarly with T for Trim. Surely anyone who has been reasonably
trained with use the trimmer without thinking about it for any long
term change in speed? Why make it a separate item in a check list at a
time when maximum attention should be gven to lookout?

I have had experienced full cat instructors tell me that they didn't
advocate any down wind checks at all, per se, as they claimed that
every single one should be a consequence of good airmanship. I don't
go that far myself, but the only ones which is seems to me might be
seens as circuit extras are Undercarriage (check only, should be down
already), Speed, Airbrakes (in case frozen). Everything else should
have been done before or is plain bleeding obvious. Do you really,
truly, know people who wouldn't check the intended landing area unless
they had a mnemonic? If so, should they be flying? [I think I know
one, and I don't think he should be.]

Ian

PS If the F is for Flaps for the small proportion of gliders with 'em,
what about the other W for Water? Mind you, I had one instructor who
used the F for "Fag (extinguish and chuck out of DV panel)"...
--

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-V8pRq3LwYqPX@localhost...


Similarly with T for Trim. Surely anyone who has been reasonably
trained with use the trimmer without thinking about it for any long
term change in speed? Why make it a separate item in a check list at a
time when maximum attention should be gven to lookout?


Ian

PS If the F is for Flaps for the small proportion of gliders with 'em,
what about the other W for Water? Mind you, I had one instructor who
used the F for "Fag (extinguish and chuck out of DV panel)"...
--


I tend to set trim a bit nose heavy for the landing pattern. That way if my
attention is diverted from airspeed control for a second of two, at least
the glider will want to increase airspeed on its own. That's a different
use of trim than the usual trimming for the exact airspeed.

The way I think some pilots may get into trouble is if the trim is set for
thermalling while scratching for that last thermal but then they give up and
turn in to land, and forget to re-trim, that leaves the glider trimmed a bit
nose up for the normal pattern speed. If their attention is diverted, the
airspeed may drop toward stall.

Bill Daniels

Ian Johnston wrote:

circuit extras are Undercarriage (check only, should be down
already), Speed, Airbrakes (in case frozen).

USA! I love it. U (because I've seen several gear-ups).

S (because it reminds one to turn early or late on
downwind, and compensate for headwind/look at the sock),
also, many landing accidents are undershoots.

A (less important, but worthy of a check to ensure you
don't have a flap handle (L-13), and that they actually
unlock)

Everything else should
have been done before or is plain bleeding obvious.

Yep, the rest could be further down the list...

I had one instructor who
used the F for "Fag (extinguish and chuck out of DV panel)"...

LOL! I had to read this one twice...


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Frank,

Not a troll. There's no BGA-mandated checklist for pre-landing checks, as
far as I know (this kind of thing changes regularly), and in any event as a
basic instructor I'm not permitted to let the student fly below 500 feet or
to teach this stuff, so what I wrote was about my own flying practices.
Certainly, in my pre-solo training (following the then BGA manual) in 1996/7
I wan't taught pre-landing checks.

What I was trying to respond to was the suggestion that consciously checking
Lookout is useless because we should all lookout in any event - I think this
*is* a useful reminder, as it's helpful to recognise the change in lookout
mode.

I believe I have the current BGA position right (though I don't speak for
the BGA in any way!) as follows: landing checklists are potentially
problematic because on training aircraft some parts don't apply - thus, e.g.
learning to say "Undercarriage - fixed" can cement the idea in a student's
mind that there is no need for action, so when moving to retractable
undercarriage they don't lower it. Instead, instructors teach the
appropriate elements which would form a checklist so that they become
entrenched as part of the routine for landing rather than items to be ticked
off on a mental checklist. Water and Flaps carry the same penalty.

(For what it's worth, I understand my wheels-up landing met all the common
criteria - 10th flight on retractable, so I'm just becoming comfortable with
it and not consciously thinking about the differences from previous
aircraft; high workload (trying to scratch away from a winch launch); and
distractions (other aircraft in the circuit and the launch point in an
unfamiliar place). Result - reversion to primary training which, of course,
was on fixed wheel aircraft).

In terms of my own flying (whether with students or solo) the thought
processes go roughly as follows:

W - not considered, as I currently fly nothing which carries water ballast.

U - do I have retractable undercarriage, and if so is it down? This is a
conscious element of my preparation for landing.

F - as for W

S - straps (though I always have to think, if someone asks me what WUFSTALL
means, whether this is not speed - thus in my mind it's a bad acronym
because it's not unique, and different from HASSL for stall/spin manoeuvres
because even if you can't remember which S is straps, one of them has to
be). I check these regularly throughout the flight, so this is an entrenched
item and not one requiring a conscious check

T - as above, I trim for every airspeed change, so this is entrenched
behaviour. I also don't like the way this substitutes for thinking about my
approach speed, as I could instead trim for my current speed. So my
conscious thought here is "What approach speed", which requires me to check
wind direction (not in checks), wind shear/gradient (not in checks), need
for a speed reserve if I might need to land long (aircraft fails to clear
the runway, not in checks) etc. etc.

A - airbrakes need checking if they might have frozen shut, but not
otherwise so far as I can see. Not confusing the airbrake lever with some
other lever is important, and I consciously check this if I'm flying an
aircraft where I could make this mistake.

LL - a conscious element because of the change of lookout mode.

There's also a whole set of other matters to think about which aren't on any
standard checklist, such as should the audio vario be turned off to avoid
distractions, is it appropriate to use my tailchute or not, would a radio
call announcing my presence be helpful, pointless or downright unhelpful (as
recently when a gaggle of competition fliers all lucked out overhead at the
same time and arrived from multiple directions) and so on.

It seems to me that the big question is whether pre-landing checks should be
taught or not. Some think yes, to deal with the pilot who isn't thinking
properly about the landing. Some think no, because the pilot must be taught
to think, rather than follow a list.

I was taught under the second philosophy, and I guess that's what became
entrenched in my approach to the issue, though if the BGA decides to
introduce teaching checklists for this, I'll learn and teach them.

The pre-launch checks (whichever version you use) are different - you
haven't started flying yet, and the brain needs to begin the switch-on
process.

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...
Is this a troll?

Personally I can't believe a UK basic instructor is saying this publicly.
Are you still giving ab-initio lessons? Perhaps you should chant this, or
something like WULFSTALL, in the circuit and think about what each item is
and what the implications are if you don't do each one. You seem to
already
know about one, but the others are so embarassing they can kill you.
Doubtless you do this appropriately during your annual club checks, but
lack
of clarity of what each item reflects or the need is disturbing. Please
re-read your post, print a copy and hand carry it to your CFI at
Rattlesden.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

"Chris Reed" wrote in message
...
I quite like the "lookout" element of USTALL (though I don't actually
chant
the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it for is a reminder
that,
in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay attention to the
other
side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight in approaches,
and
look at what's happening on the ground. This is a different mode of
lookout
to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout" at
some point to remind me of the change of mode.

But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout except in response
to
a
checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the sky.

S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto, and
A
(airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in trouble,
though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever on the same side
as
the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note to check which lever
I
intended to use for approach control.

U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and
hoping not to do it again.

"Ian Johnston" wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost...
You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in the
UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't normally
think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all,
"lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who
need a mnemonic to remind them to look out...

Thanks for your reply.

S-Speed, appropriate for conditions and glider. Never heard it used for
straps. OBTW, was member over time of four UK clubs, two civil, two RAF,
plus flew irregularly at 9-10 others, last in 1995. Thinking back, hadn't
flown with anyone that had become instructor since sometime in the '80's.

Regards,

Frank

"Chris Reed" wrote in message
...
Frank,

Not a troll. There's no BGA-mandated checklist for pre-landing checks, as
far as I know (this kind of thing changes regularly), and in any event as
a
basic instructor I'm not permitted to let the student fly below 500 feet
or
to teach this stuff, so what I wrote was about my own flying practices.
Certainly, in my pre-solo training (following the then BGA manual) in
1996/7
I wan't taught pre-landing checks.

What I was trying to respond to was the suggestion that consciously
checking
Lookout is useless because we should all lookout in any event - I think
this
*is* a useful reminder, as it's helpful to recognise the change in lookout
mode.

I believe I have the current BGA position right (though I don't speak for
the BGA in any way!) as follows: landing checklists are potentially
problematic because on training aircraft some parts don't apply - thus,
e.g.
learning to say "Undercarriage - fixed" can cement the idea in a student's
mind that there is no need for action, so when moving to retractable
undercarriage they don't lower it. Instead, instructors teach the
appropriate elements which would form a checklist so that they become
entrenched as part of the routine for landing rather than items to be
ticked
off on a mental checklist. Water and Flaps carry the same penalty.

(For what it's worth, I understand my wheels-up landing met all the common
criteria - 10th flight on retractable, so I'm just becoming comfortable
with
it and not consciously thinking about the differences from previous
aircraft; high workload (trying to scratch away from a winch launch); and
distractions (other aircraft in the circuit and the launch point in an
unfamiliar place). Result - reversion to primary training which, of
course,
was on fixed wheel aircraft).

In terms of my own flying (whether with students or solo) the thought
processes go roughly as follows:

W - not considered, as I currently fly nothing which carries water
ballast.

U - do I have retractable undercarriage, and if so is it down? This is a
conscious element of my preparation for landing.

F - as for W

S - straps (though I always have to think, if someone asks me what
WUFSTALL
means, whether this is not speed - thus in my mind it's a bad acronym
because it's not unique, and different from HASSL for stall/spin
manoeuvres
because even if you can't remember which S is straps, one of them has to
be). I check these regularly throughout the flight, so this is an
entrenched
item and not one requiring a conscious check

T - as above, I trim for every airspeed change, so this is entrenched
behaviour. I also don't like the way this substitutes for thinking about
my
approach speed, as I could instead trim for my current speed. So my
conscious thought here is "What approach speed", which requires me to
check
wind direction (not in checks), wind shear/gradient (not in checks), need
for a speed reserve if I might need to land long (aircraft fails to clear
the runway, not in checks) etc. etc.

A - airbrakes need checking if they might have frozen shut, but not
otherwise so far as I can see. Not confusing the airbrake lever with some
other lever is important, and I consciously check this if I'm flying an
aircraft where I could make this mistake.

LL - a conscious element because of the change of lookout mode.

There's also a whole set of other matters to think about which aren't on
any
standard checklist, such as should the audio vario be turned off to avoid
distractions, is it appropriate to use my tailchute or not, would a radio
call announcing my presence be helpful, pointless or downright unhelpful
(as
recently when a gaggle of competition fliers all lucked out overhead at
the
same time and arrived from multiple directions) and so on.

It seems to me that the big question is whether pre-landing checks should
be
taught or not. Some think yes, to deal with the pilot who isn't thinking
properly about the landing. Some think no, because the pilot must be
taught
to think, rather than follow a list.

I was taught under the second philosophy, and I guess that's what became
entrenched in my approach to the issue, though if the BGA decides to
introduce teaching checklists for this, I'll learn and teach them.

The pre-launch checks (whichever version you use) are different - you
haven't started flying yet, and the brain needs to begin the switch-on
process.

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...
Is this a troll?

Personally I can't believe a UK basic instructor is saying this
publicly.
Are you still giving ab-initio lessons? Perhaps you should chant this,
or
something like WULFSTALL, in the circuit and think about what each item
is
and what the implications are if you don't do each one. You seem to
already
know about one, but the others are so embarassing they can kill you.
Doubtless you do this appropriately during your annual club checks, but
lack
of clarity of what each item reflects or the need is disturbing. Please
re-read your post, print a copy and hand carry it to your CFI at
Rattlesden.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado

"Chris Reed" wrote in message
...
I quite like the "lookout" element of USTALL (though I don't actually
chant
the checklist to myself on circuit). What I use it for is a reminder
that,
in addition to my normal lookout, I also need to pay attention to the
other
side of the circuit, look for aircraft on long, straight in
approaches,
and
look at what's happening on the ground. This is a different mode of
lookout
to XC or local soaring, and I usually find myself muttering "lookout"
at
some point to remind me of the change of mode.

But I take the point - if the pilot doesn't lookout except in response
to
a
checklist, I'd like to be in a different part of the sky.

S (straps or speed?) is pretty useless on downwind, T (trim) ditto,
and
A
(airbrakes I think) is wierd - if you can't find them you're in
trouble,
though if I flew a flapped glider or had the UC lever on the same side
as
the airbrake (LS4s excepted) I'd add a mental note to check which
lever
I
intended to use for approach control.

U is quite clear in my mind, having landed wheels up once already, and
hoping not to do it again.

"Ian Johnston" wrote in
message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-zikdWvOGpoiF@localhost...
You should see some of the downwind checklists/mnemonics in use in
the
UK. They include things like "trim" - for people who wouldn't
normally
think of using the trimmer, I presume - and, most bizarrely of all,
"lookout". I'm not sure that I want to share the sky with people who
need a mnemonic to remind them to look out...

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:25:01 UTC, "F.L. Whiteley"
wrote:

: S-Speed, appropriate for conditions and glider. Never heard it used for
: straps.

I think the longest downwind checklist I have had recommeneded was
WWULFSSTALL:

Wind, Water, Undercarriage, L (can't remember what this was), Flaps,
Straps, Speed, Trim, Airbrake, Landing area, Lookout.

It required a 2000' entry to the circuit just to get the damn thing
completed.

Ian

--

I've been following this thread with mild interest. It seems to show up
that check lists, while useful, can be misused.

I try to make the distinction between "Check" lists and "Do" lists. If the
list is used as a reminder to do things, it is a "Do" list. This is using
the list as a memory crutch.

If a list is used to check that important things have already been done, it
is a "Check" list. I emphasize that the pre-takeoff and pre-landing tasks
should be done from memory and then checked against the list.

I think this is better in at least two ways. First, the list is done twice,
once from memory and once from the list. Second, in a rushed situation, the
critical tasks can be done from memory with a greater chance of success
since this is the established habit.

For example: BUFSTALL (In downwind)

Ballast: Dump started 7 minutes ago, valve in open position, water should be
gone by now.
Undercarriage: Visually check handle is securely in the down position where
I put it a minute ago.
Flaps: Visually check, securely in landing position where they have been
since pattern entry.
Speed: Still correct for wind and turbulence.
Trim: Still set.
Airbrakes: Visually check, left hand still on correct handle since testing.
Look: Surrounding airspace and landing area are still clear of conflicting
traffic - select aim point.
Landing: Mentally review, touchdown attitude, flaps to negative after
touchdown, stick back to make tailwheel heavy, brake smoothly.

Used in this manner, the BUFSTALL checklist can be done in just a few
seconds.

Bill Daniels