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#1
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CV wrote:
Nyal Williams wrote: This isn't Communism; it's Fascism. Communism is about economic organization; Fascism is about behavioral control. I despise both. Splitting hairs. Communism cannot be upheld unless you have fascism as well. ... Depends what is the definition of Communism. I heard some avocates of the kibbutz system in Israel saying that this was the true communism. It may disputed if this true as well as if it is a successful economic organization, but as an economic organization it is a kind of communism. However, as far as I know, it doesn't imply fascism. |
#2
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Robert Ehrlich wrote:
CV wrote: Splitting hairs. Communism cannot be upheld unless you have fascism as well. Depends what is the definition of Communism. I heard some avocates of the kibbutz system in Israel saying that this was the true communism. It may disputed if this true as well as if it is a successful economic organization, but as an economic organization it is a kind of communism. However, as far as I know, it doesn't imply fascism. Could be so. I know nothing about the kibbutzes. I was talking about whole countries. CV |
#4
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Thanks all for the replies.
The reason I asked this, is that in some European contries, Diesel is much, much cheaper than AVgas or Mogas. "Red" diesel is untaxed and illegal for road use, but a towplane doesn't operate from roads. Besides, diesel engines also run on Jet A-1, which here has tax advantages, at least at the time. Our club actually has a winch (most clubs in Holland do), but we cannot use it during airport operation (=thermal) hours since we operate on a busy, narrow airstrip with powerd aircraft operations. As AVGas is getting very expensive (not only here, I guess...), the usual Robin/Husky/... tow planes become more and more uneconomical. We now use a Super Dimona (Katana Xtreme) to tow even our Janus C and ASH-25 from the grass strip, but in heavy crosswind we sometimes can see the cars too near below us. This motorglider however seems to be the only way to keep our tow costs reasonably down. At least for this part of Europe, I think a Diesel in a Robin-like airframe would be a very nice replacement. Let's see what the near future brings. Olfert Hornet A7 |
#5
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![]() "Olfert Cleveringa" wrote in message .com... Thanks all for the replies. The reason I asked this, is that in some European contries, Diesel is much, much cheaper than AVgas or Mogas. "Red" diesel is untaxed and illegal for road use, but a towplane doesn't operate from roads. Besides, diesel engines also run on Jet A-1, which here has tax advantages, at least at the time. Our club actually has a winch (most clubs in Holland do), but we cannot use it during airport operation (=thermal) hours since we operate on a busy, narrow airstrip with powerd aircraft operations. As AVGas is getting very expensive (not only here, I guess...), the usual Robin/Husky/... tow planes become more and more uneconomical. We now use a Super Dimona (Katana Xtreme) to tow even our Janus C and ASH-25 from the grass strip, but in heavy crosswind we sometimes can see the cars too near below us. This motorglider however seems to be the only way to keep our tow costs reasonably down. At least for this part of Europe, I think a Diesel in a Robin-like airframe would be a very nice replacement. Let's see what the near future brings. Olfert Hornet A7 I agree with Olfert. The world needs a purpose-designed towplane and, if the designer choose one of the new diesels, that would be a very good thing. It would probably look something like a Super Dimona but with taller landing gear and bigger prop. With good aerodynamics, 135 HP would handle the heaviest gliders. Bill Daniels |
#6
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![]() "Bill Daniels" wrote in message news:kaVgd.278275$wV.24225@attbi_s54... "Olfert Cleveringa" wrote in message .com... Thanks all for the replies. The reason I asked this, is that in some European contries, Diesel is much, much cheaper than AVgas or Mogas. "Red" diesel is untaxed and illegal for road use, but a towplane doesn't operate from roads. Besides, diesel engines also run on Jet A-1, which here has tax advantages, at least at the time. Our club actually has a winch (most clubs in Holland do), but we cannot use it during airport operation (=thermal) hours since we operate on a busy, narrow airstrip with powerd aircraft operations. As AVGas is getting very expensive (not only here, I guess...), the usual Robin/Husky/... tow planes become more and more uneconomical. We now use a Super Dimona (Katana Xtreme) to tow even our Janus C and ASH-25 from the grass strip, but in heavy crosswind we sometimes can see the cars too near below us. This motorglider however seems to be the only way to keep our tow costs reasonably down. At least for this part of Europe, I think a Diesel in a Robin-like airframe would be a very nice replacement. Let's see what the near future brings. Olfert Hornet A7 I agree with Olfert. The world needs a purpose-designed towplane and, if the designer choose one of the new diesels, that would be a very good thing. It would probably look something like a Super Dimona but with taller landing gear and bigger prop. With good aerodynamics, 135 HP would handle the heaviest gliders. Bill Daniels Yep, and it should have "ferry tips" that shorten the span, to make it a little faster to move from place to place. They should fit inside the airplane. Then when you get there, swap tips back for the higher AR climb configuration. Tim Ward |
#7
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![]() "Tim Ward" wrote in message ... "Bill Daniels" wrote in message news:kaVgd.278275$wV.24225@attbi_s54... "Olfert Cleveringa" wrote in message .com... Thanks all for the replies. The reason I asked this, is that in some European contries, Diesel is much, much cheaper than AVgas or Mogas. "Red" diesel is untaxed and illegal for road use, but a towplane doesn't operate from roads. Besides, diesel engines also run on Jet A-1, which here has tax advantages, at least at the time. Our club actually has a winch (most clubs in Holland do), but we cannot use it during airport operation (=thermal) hours since we operate on a busy, narrow airstrip with powerd aircraft operations. As AVGas is getting very expensive (not only here, I guess...), the usual Robin/Husky/... tow planes become more and more uneconomical. We now use a Super Dimona (Katana Xtreme) to tow even our Janus C and ASH-25 from the grass strip, but in heavy crosswind we sometimes can see the cars too near below us. This motorglider however seems to be the only way to keep our tow costs reasonably down. At least for this part of Europe, I think a Diesel in a Robin-like airframe would be a very nice replacement. Let's see what the near future brings. Olfert Hornet A7 I agree with Olfert. The world needs a purpose-designed towplane and, if the designer choose one of the new diesels, that would be a very good thing. It would probably look something like a Super Dimona but with taller landing gear and bigger prop. With good aerodynamics, 135 HP would handle the heaviest gliders. Bill Daniels Yep, and it should have "ferry tips" that shorten the span, to make it a little faster to move from place to place. They should fit inside the airplane. Then when you get there, swap tips back for the higher AR climb configuration. Tim Ward Removable tips would let it reside in a standard T-hangar. Bill Daniels |
#8
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Olfert Cleveringa wrote:
At least for this part of Europe, I think a Diesel in a Robin-like airframe would be a very nice replacement. I don't think so, there are better solutions. This year, in Switzerland, we've carried out serious experiments with those new ultra lights as tow planes, with the allowance and under the supervision of the FOCA. The results were unexpected and spectacular. (For our American friends: I'm not speaking of those flying lawn-movers, but of the new high tech airplanes rated as Ultra Lights in Europe. Look at http://www.remos.com/ and http://www.lightwing.ch/ for two examples.) As I said, the results were astonishing. Powered with a 100 hp Rotax engine, they performed as well if not better than a typical "classic" 180 hp towplane! Even a heavy two seater on wet grass wasn't a problem! Start roll was even shorter, the noise level was much lower (important in Europe), and all with a gas burn of 12l/h instead of 40l/h. (Or similiar, I don't have the exact numbers handy.) Even when high tows lasted a little longer (i.e. 15 instead of 12 minutes), they were much cheaper. We discussed why those planes would perform so well with only 100 hp. We think, there are mainly two reasons. First, as the name says, they are very light. It makes a difference whether the plane weights 1000 kg or 400. Then, "traditional" airplanes fly way too slowly on tow. They are operated far away from their best climb speed, while those ultralights are operated very near best climb speed. But for whatever reason, in Switzerland it is common belief now that those ultra lights are the future of towing. Stefan |
#9
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On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:51:07 +0100, Stefan wrote:
Olfert Cleveringa wrote: At least for this part of Europe, I think a Diesel in a Robin-like airframe would be a very nice replacement. I don't think so, there are better solutions. This year, in Switzerland, we've carried out serious experiments with those new ultra lights as tow planes, with the allowance and under the supervision of the FOCA. The results were unexpected and spectacular. (For our American friends: I'm not speaking of those flying lawn-movers, but of the new high tech airplanes rated as Ultra Lights in Europe. Look at http://www.remos.com/ and http://www.lightwing.ch/ for two examples.) As I said, the results were astonishing. Powered with a 100 hp Rotax engine, they performed as well if not better than a typical "classic" 180 hp towplane! Even a heavy two seater on wet grass wasn't a problem! Start roll was even shorter, the noise level was much lower (important in Europe), and all with a gas burn of 12l/h instead of 40l/h. (Or similiar, I don't have the exact numbers handy.) Even when high tows lasted a little longer (i.e. 15 instead of 12 minutes), they were much cheaper. We discussed why those planes would perform so well with only 100 hp. We think, there are mainly two reasons. First, as the name says, they are very light. It makes a difference whether the plane weights 1000 kg or 400. Then, "traditional" airplanes fly way too slowly on tow. They are operated far away from their best climb speed, while those ultralights are operated very near best climb speed. But for whatever reason, in Switzerland it is common belief now that those ultra lights are the future of towing. Stefan Stefan, Have they done any tests at high altitude airfields ? My memory of Swiss gliding fields is that they are in valleys, with reasonably low altitude. If I am wrong, please correct me, as my knowledge is fragmentary regarding your lovely country. We have discussed ultralight tow planes, but the consesus seems to be that with high temperatures (40 C is not at all uncommon) the high density altitude will reduce the performance to an unacceptable level. I have also heard some rumours that the high speed Rotax engines don't take kindly to the extended full power operation necessary when towing, and the lifetime is shortened. Can you comment on this please ? Cheers, John G. (Victoria, Australia) |
#10
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John Giddy wrote:
Have they done any tests at high altitude airfields ? How high is high enough? Is a 800 meter paved runway at 1328 m (4354 ft) altitude high enough? I took off in a Janus last summer there behind an ultralight. It wasn't 40°C, though. ... regarding your lovely country. You may spare the flattery, I'm not American. ;-) We have discussed ultralight tow planes, but the consesus seems to be that with high temperatures (40 C is not at all uncommon) the high density altitude will reduce the performance to an unacceptable level. We've discussed it, too, and all experts said that it wasn't possible. The experiments showed it was. If you want to know, you must do the experiments in the conditions which are important to you. No way to know otherwise. I have also heard some rumours that the high speed Rotax engines don't take kindly to the extended full power operation necessary when towing, and the lifetime is shortened. Can you comment on this please I've heard all kinds of rumours. No, I can't comment on the lifetime of Rotaxen, sorry. Stefan |
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