Update on Minden tradegy

In article , Todd Pattist
writes

I've also had some pilots tell me they were trained years
ago to use a standard compass

That is, an old fashioned one with pendulous suspension of the magnet
assembly. This type of compass has acceleration errors on east and west
and turning errors on north and south. What may be an "error" in terms
of registering an accurate instantaneous heading, might be turned to
advantage in a case of total failure of gyro instruments. With great
caution, of course, and IMHO not the best answer, see below.

, head south

It is true that a pendulous compass has turning errors on South, and
could be used a sort of turn indicator on that heading.

and steer with
rudders.

No! A good way to get disorientated, IMHO. What is wrong with turning
in the normal way, application of (in this case) small amounts of bank
where necessary. Fly gently, don't get used to coarse use of
unnecessary control inputs. Particularly boots of rudder un-coordinated
with aileron, unless you wish to spin or do aerobatics, of course!.

However, to stay alive in instrument flying, particularly in turbulence,
there is no substitute for proper aircraft-designed gyro instruments.

I taught and examined on what we used to call "limited panel" for many
years, AND IT WORKS, with a bit of practice. That is, instrument flight
using a good old Sperry turn gyro presented through a needle display
("needle, ball, airspeed ... needle, ball, airspeed"). Turn gyros take
little power and normally run on DC, so are well suited to glider use.

People say that instrument flight using only a turn needle is difficult,
But at least it is designed for the job, unlike pendulous compasses, GPS
presentations etc. And what is difficult is limited-panel accurate
pattern turns, approaches etc., with an examiner breathing down your
neck!

Merely keeping the wings about level so as not to enter a spiral dive,
is not difficult. On a safe heading, of course, that is away from known
high ground. Try it in a two-seater with a safety pilot, but make sure
that you are really "under the hood" and are not peeping out to see the
horizon, otherwise you are not really getting proper training that might
get you out of trouble later.

The dear old Link Trainer was pretty good for this training also, but
there aren't many about now except in museums!

Of course even better if your glider has a gyro-driven Artificial
Horizon as well as that rate-gyro. Makes instrument flight for those
not in practice, including me nowadays, reasonably straightforward.

--
Ian Strachan
Lasham Gliding Centre, UK

In article ,
Ian Strachan wrote:

Merely keeping the wings about level so as not to enter a spiral dive,
is not difficult. On a safe heading, of course, that is away from known
high ground. Try it in a two-seater with a safety pilot, but make sure
that you are really "under the hood" and are not peeping out to see the
horizon, otherwise you are not really getting proper training that might
get you out of trouble later.

It's amazing how hard it is to get *true* no-visual-reference conditions
in IMC.

I've done some flying with a commercial pilot friend doing night freight
runs in small turboprops. Even in the clouds in the middle of nowhere
in NZ you can almost always see some speck of light out of the corner of
your eye, whether a farmhouse or a star, and that gives you roll
information even when you're not looking at the AH. You don't realize
how much this helps until the first time there really *is* nothing out
there.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

In article , Bruce
Hoult writes

It's amazing how hard it is to get *true* no-visual-reference conditions
in IMC.

I've done some flying with a commercial pilot friend doing night freight
runs in small turboprops. Even in the clouds in the middle of nowhere
in NZ you can almost always see some speck of light out of the corner of
your eye, whether a farmhouse or a star, and that gives you roll
information even when you're not looking at the AH. You don't realize
how much this helps until the first time there really *is* nothing out
there.

A reference if you are rolling but for a controlled descent you do not
want to be rolling. More important, what about horizon reference? I
have often seen "false horizons" in cloud layers and at night. They can
be very disorientating. For instance, I got severe "leans" once when
coming off a tanker at night when the lit tanker was in a turn. And
several times when between slanting cloud layers.

Not a glider case, of course, but "beware the false horizon" and
"believe the turn needle" would appear to be good guidance!

Incidentally the title of this thread uses the word "benign". An
accelerating spiral in a slick glider can be anything but benign. It is
not difficult, I imagine, to literally pull the wings off in an attempt
to recover. The rule on "limited panel" unusual attitude recoveries was
"don't pull until you have the turn needle within about Rate 1 of the
centre of the instrument.

--
Ian Strachan

Bentworth Hall West
Tel: +44 1420 564 195 Bentworth, Alton
Fax: +44 1420 563 140 Hampshire GU34 5LA, ENGLAND

Bruce Hoult wrote:

It's amazing how hard it is to get *true* no-visual-reference conditions
in IMC.

I've done some flying with a commercial pilot friend doing night freight
runs in small turboprops. Even in the clouds in the middle of nowhere
in NZ you can almost always see some speck of light out of the corner of
your eye, whether a farmhouse or a star, and that gives you roll
information even when you're not looking at the AH. You don't realize
how much this helps until the first time there really *is* nothing out
there.

There have been an amazing number of Navy pilots that have flown into
the water as they mistaked boat lights for either stars or an aircraft
they were joining on. I know, not pertinent to gliders, but the optical
illusions of sort of IMC/VMC can be intense and almost more disorienting.

nafod40 wrote:

There have been an amazing number of Navy pilots that have flown into
the water as they mistaked boat lights for either stars or an aircraft

There are libraries full of books about wrong visual clues: Houses on a
hill taken for stars, a street taken for a shore line, wrong
perspectives, wrong distances, wrong altitude, etc. etc. etc. I'm always
amazed that there would still be pilots who believe they are smarter
than those who contributed to this knowledge with their blood.

If in IMC or at night, believe your instruments and nothing else. If
your aircraft (glider) is not adequately equipped, avoid clouds. This
can be done! There is no such thing as "trapped" by a layer if you act
as you should. If you feel like cloud flying, equip your glider
accordingly and learn how to use the gauges.

Stefan

I could never get my ASW-20B to do a benign spiral. I tried many times
over a period of sixteen years and 2000 hours with flaps, spoilers,
gear, trim and CG in various positions. My technique was to set up the
configuration, then upset the attitude a bit the way rotor cloud
turbulence would, and then hands and feet off. It always would begin
with small "zoomies" which got bigger and bigger until I was forced to
take control to save my life.

My '20 was also the only glider (or throttled back power plane) that I
ever flew which was uncontrollable with the stick against the aft
stop. With every type but the '20 I could very slowly ease the stick
aft until it hit the stop and then control it indefinitely with coarse
use of aileron and rudder as it waffled downwards. Not the '20. Very
quickly it would tell me that I better push forward or it was going to
self destruct. The exception was in a very steep bank, 50 or 60
degrees, doing 10 second circles and pulling about 2 g's.

I loved my '20 - a wonderful airplane. There must be other types out
there with the same characteristics but I never came across one. This
winter while I'm floating around the skies in Florida I'll try out my
'27 and see what it does.

Walter

Walter Weir wrote:

My '20 was also the only glider (or throttled back power plane) that I
ever flew which was uncontrollable with the stick against the aft
stop. With every type but the '20 I could very slowly ease the stick
aft until it hit the stop and then control it indefinitely with coarse
use of aileron and rudder as it waffled downwards.

I would think "coarse use" of the ailerons would be exactly the wrong
thing to do with the stick full aft.

Rudder is often the best, and sometimes the only, way to do high AOA
maneuvering in fixed-wing types I have flown.

In what types have you found coarse use of aileron to be of benefit at
high AOA?



Jack

I too learned to fly clouds, in the UK on Turn and Ball; those old gliders did
at least have speed limiting dve brakes which I never had to use.
When I graduated to the Oly with a German WWII artificail horizon
cloud flying was the proverbial piece of cake. When my AH failed
(low battery) about 12000 ft in Yugo '72, I was glad that I had those hours
Of time using T and B.
I was told that a skilled pilot with a Bohli freely gimballed compass
could adequately cloud fly and Bohlis were banned from World comps.
I did prove to my limited satisfaction that with great care and circumspection
one could maintain a controlled trun using the COOK vertcal bearing compass
but I do not think I would try it now.
In closing, always have a backup, if you go IFR; the offical report of a
sad accident to a single engine transatlantic delivery happened on final
IFR approach to Reyavik , when the pilot reported AH failure! (no T and B)
That is pegging your life to one unkown instrument.
Don't do it.
John Firth
Old, no longer bold pilot.

Ian
Strachan ) writes:
In article , Todd Pattist
writes

I've also had some pilots tell me they were trained years
ago to use a standard compass

That is, an old fashioned one with pendulous suspension of the magnet
assembly. This type of compass has acceleration errors on east and west
and turning errors on north and south. What may be an "error" in terms
of registering an accurate instantaneous heading, might be turned to
advantage in a case of total failure of gyro instruments. With great
caution, of course, and IMHO not the best answer, see below.

, head south

It is true that a pendulous compass has turning errors on South, and
could be used a sort of turn indicator on that heading.

and steer with
rudders.

No! A good way to get disorientated, IMHO. What is wrong with turning
in the normal way, application of (in this case) small amounts of bank
where necessary. Fly gently, don't get used to coarse use of
unnecessary control inputs. Particularly boots of rudder un-coordinated
with aileron, unless you wish to spin or do aerobatics, of course!.

However, to stay alive in instrument flying, particularly in turbulence,
there is no substitute for proper aircraft-designed gyro instruments.

I taught and examined on what we used to call "limited panel" for many
years, AND IT WORKS, with a bit of practice. That is, instrument flight
using a good old Sperry turn gyro presented through a needle display
("needle, ball, airspeed ... needle, ball, airspeed"). Turn gyros take
little power and normally run on DC, so are well suited to glider use.

People say that instrument flight using only a turn needle is difficult,
But at least it is designed for the job, unlike pendulous compasses, GPS
presentations etc. And what is difficult is limited-panel accurate
pattern turns, approaches etc., with an examiner breathing down your
neck!

Merely keeping the wings about level so as not to enter a spiral dive,
is not difficult. On a safe heading, of course, that is away from known
high ground. Try it in a two-seater with a safety pilot, but make sure
that you are really "under the hood" and are not peeping out to see the
horizon, otherwise you are not really getting proper training that might
get you out of trouble later.

The dear old Link Trainer was pretty good for this training also, but
there aren't many about now except in museums!

Of course even better if your glider has a gyro-driven Artificial
Horizon as well as that rate-gyro. Makes instrument flight for those
not in practice, including me nowadays, reasonably straightforward.

--
Ian Strachan
Lasham Gliding Centre, UK

(John Firth) wrote in message ...
I too learned to fly clouds, in the UK on Turn and Ball; those old gliders did
at least have speed limiting dve brakes which I never had to use.
When I graduated to the Oly with a German WWII artificail horizon
cloud flying was the proverbial piece of cake. When my AH failed
(low battery) about 12000 ft in Yugo '72, I was glad that I had those hours
Of time using T and B.
I was told that a skilled pilot with a Bohli freely gimballed compass
could adequately cloud fly and Bohlis were banned from World comps.
I did prove to my limited satisfaction that with great care and circumspection
one could maintain a controlled trun using the COOK vertcal bearing compass
but I do not think I would try it now.
In closing, always have a backup, if you go IFR; the offical report of a
sad accident to a single engine transatlantic delivery happened on final
IFR approach to Reyavik , when the pilot reported AH failure! (no T and B)
That is pegging your life to one unkown instrument.
Don't do it.
John Firth
Old, no longer bold pilot.

.... which brings us back to the question of whether or not modern GPS
displays of the sort that Glide Navigator provides would be adequate
on an EMERGENCY basis to provide roll reference. Just to clarify, I
fully agree with all of the posts that intentional flight in IMC
without proper instruments is nuts. I have over the last 20 years
only a few hours of needle/ball/airspeed training and practice, and I
would never rely on it today given how rusty I am. However, it's
basically a moot point in the US, as almost no gliders are equipped
with an AH or even an electric T&B. So, in a pinch, the question on
the table is: Benign Spiral or maintain level flight (if possible)
using available instruments? My guess is that the GPS output is
probably too coarse to provide rapid enough roll information,
especially in turbulence. I think I'll go up with someone in a
two-place and give it a shot. Report to follow...

P3

I think part of the problem is the normal pilot response to a worsening
situation: equipment and experience play a huge part.

If people are 'caught' above cloud with no blind flying instruments, there is a
definite tendency to go into 'panic mode' and take the first available
(unlikely to be the best) option and immediately try to spin/dive through the
cloud layer. Much in the same way that stressed pilots in the mountains
airbrake down (and crash) into tiny bits of green.

If you know where you are (most gliders have GPS) and are not actually IN cloud
then you have time to work out what you are going to do. (Although maybe some
thought should have been given to this earlier?) Sometimes just waiting will
improve the situation. Or you might have to fly somewhere else where you can
let down clear of cloud.

The world of wave/IMC glider flying is far removed from that of normal thermal
soaring. Under the clouds, if the sun goes in, the lift stops and you land.
Over them, it just carries on. When you are wave flying a sailplane on a cloudy
day, especially at altitude, you are operating in conditions where most other
aircraft are pressurised, turbine powered, de-iced and contain a full suite of
navigation and autoflight equipment.

When I go wave flying with others, I am always surprised by the seeming lack of
PREPARATION or THOUGHT about what might happen. I suppose I have rescued too
many people/gliders from the sides of mountains or edges of lakes. Wave flying
above 8/8 gives me a real 'heightened sense of awareness', i.e. I'm scared.
Doesn't stop me enjoying it immensely, though.

A lack of any coherent contingency plans feauture strongly in
incidents/accidents. What will I do if the wave gap closes? My oxygen gets
low/fails? Controls start freezing up? Airbrakes won't open? etc. Where are my
nearest suitable landing places? How will I get to them? How can I fly a
non-precision approach in a glider in a strong wind, using GPS?

The answers to most of these questions can be worked out on the ground, at your
leisure.

To those of you who regularly fly above cloud with no instruments: Good Luck!
(You'll need it.)

I don't understand why in some countries most gliders have no IF instruments in
their panels at all. I know that sailplanes are not allowed to fly in IMC in
some states but I'm sure there aren't laws preventing the FITTING and even
non-IMC USE of blind flying kit? After all, you don't take off with the
INTENTION of using your parachute but it might come in handy at some point...

You can pick up a perfectly serviceable T&S/ball combo for $100-200. In fact
I've just seen one on Ebay for $9 with 3 days to run. This could be the
cheapest instrument in your glider and one day the most vital.