Update on Minden tradegy

(John Firth) wrote in message ...
I too learned to fly clouds, in the UK on Turn and Ball; those old gliders did
at least have speed limiting dve brakes which I never had to use.
When I graduated to the Oly with a German WWII artificail horizon
cloud flying was the proverbial piece of cake. When my AH failed
(low battery) about 12000 ft in Yugo '72, I was glad that I had those hours
Of time using T and B.
I was told that a skilled pilot with a Bohli freely gimballed compass
could adequately cloud fly and Bohlis were banned from World comps.
I did prove to my limited satisfaction that with great care and circumspection
one could maintain a controlled trun using the COOK vertcal bearing compass
but I do not think I would try it now.
In closing, always have a backup, if you go IFR; the offical report of a
sad accident to a single engine transatlantic delivery happened on final
IFR approach to Reyavik , when the pilot reported AH failure! (no T and B)
That is pegging your life to one unkown instrument.
Don't do it.
John Firth
Old, no longer bold pilot.

.... which brings us back to the question of whether or not modern GPS
displays of the sort that Glide Navigator provides would be adequate
on an EMERGENCY basis to provide roll reference. Just to clarify, I
fully agree with all of the posts that intentional flight in IMC
without proper instruments is nuts. I have over the last 20 years
only a few hours of needle/ball/airspeed training and practice, and I
would never rely on it today given how rusty I am. However, it's
basically a moot point in the US, as almost no gliders are equipped
with an AH or even an electric T&B. So, in a pinch, the question on
the table is: Benign Spiral or maintain level flight (if possible)
using available instruments? My guess is that the GPS output is
probably too coarse to provide rapid enough roll information,
especially in turbulence. I think I'll go up with someone in a
two-place and give it a shot. Report to follow...

P3

I think part of the problem is the normal pilot response to a worsening
situation: equipment and experience play a huge part.

If people are 'caught' above cloud with no blind flying instruments, there is a
definite tendency to go into 'panic mode' and take the first available
(unlikely to be the best) option and immediately try to spin/dive through the
cloud layer. Much in the same way that stressed pilots in the mountains
airbrake down (and crash) into tiny bits of green.

If you know where you are (most gliders have GPS) and are not actually IN cloud
then you have time to work out what you are going to do. (Although maybe some
thought should have been given to this earlier?) Sometimes just waiting will
improve the situation. Or you might have to fly somewhere else where you can
let down clear of cloud.

The world of wave/IMC glider flying is far removed from that of normal thermal
soaring. Under the clouds, if the sun goes in, the lift stops and you land.
Over them, it just carries on. When you are wave flying a sailplane on a cloudy
day, especially at altitude, you are operating in conditions where most other
aircraft are pressurised, turbine powered, de-iced and contain a full suite of
navigation and autoflight equipment.

When I go wave flying with others, I am always surprised by the seeming lack of
PREPARATION or THOUGHT about what might happen. I suppose I have rescued too
many people/gliders from the sides of mountains or edges of lakes. Wave flying
above 8/8 gives me a real 'heightened sense of awareness', i.e. I'm scared.
Doesn't stop me enjoying it immensely, though.

A lack of any coherent contingency plans feauture strongly in
incidents/accidents. What will I do if the wave gap closes? My oxygen gets
low/fails? Controls start freezing up? Airbrakes won't open? etc. Where are my
nearest suitable landing places? How will I get to them? How can I fly a
non-precision approach in a glider in a strong wind, using GPS?

The answers to most of these questions can be worked out on the ground, at your
leisure.

To those of you who regularly fly above cloud with no instruments: Good Luck!
(You'll need it.)

I don't understand why in some countries most gliders have no IF instruments in
their panels at all. I know that sailplanes are not allowed to fly in IMC in
some states but I'm sure there aren't laws preventing the FITTING and even
non-IMC USE of blind flying kit? After all, you don't take off with the
INTENTION of using your parachute but it might come in handy at some point...

You can pick up a perfectly serviceable T&S/ball combo for $100-200. In fact
I've just seen one on Ebay for $9 with 3 days to run. This could be the
cheapest instrument in your glider and one day the most vital.

Erik mann ) writes:
(John Firth) wrote in message ...
I too learned to fly clouds, in the UK on Turn and Ball; those old gliders did
at least have speed limiting dve brakes which I never had to use.
When I graduated to the Oly with a German WWII artificail horizon
cloud flying was the proverbial piece of cake. When my AH failed
(low battery) about 12000 ft in Yugo '72, I was glad that I had those hours
Of time using T and B.
I was told that a skilled pilot with a Bohli freely gimballed compass
could adequately cloud fly and Bohlis were banned from World comps.
I did prove to my limited satisfaction that with great care and circumspection
one could maintain a controlled trun using the COOK vertcal bearing compass
but I do not think I would try it now.
In closing, always have a backup, if you go IFR; the offical report of a
sad accident to a single engine transatlantic delivery happened on final
IFR approach to Reyavik , when the pilot reported AH failure! (no T and B)
That is pegging your life to one unkown instrument.
Don't do it.
John Firth
Old, no longer bold pilot.

... which brings us back to the question of whether or not modern GPS
displays of the sort that Glide Navigator provides would be adequate
on an EMERGENCY basis to provide roll reference. Just to clarify, I
fully agree with all of the posts that intentional flight in IMC
without proper instruments is nuts. I have over the last 20 years
only a few hours of needle/ball/airspeed training and practice, and I
would never rely on it today given how rusty I am. However, it's
basically a moot point in the US, as almost no gliders are equipped
with an AH or even an electric T&B. So, in a pinch, the question on
the table is: Benign Spiral or maintain level flight (if possible)
using available instruments? My guess is that the GPS output is
probably too coarse to provide rapid enough roll information,
especially in turbulence. I think I'll go up with someone in a
two-place and give it a shot. Report to follow...

P3


The track screen on my basic Garmin GPS provides a heading arrow and speed.
The heading certainly gets up dated fast enough to control a striaght heading
and probaly a skilled pilot could use it as a turn indicator, just like like
a gyro compass; might be worth checking out for emergencies.

John Firth Old and maybe more prudent.