Is it Possible to Self launch (no wingman) with CG hook??

The point is this "cartwheel scenario" has happened before.
I believe there was a case in Europe not that long ago.
gary
"Mark Newton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"goneill" wrote:

You need to be "very very" quick on release if the down wing
does not move forward with the winch launch as the upper wing
starts flying and lifts up and can throw the glider/you into an
end over end cartwheel,

You don't start with a "down wing". You prop the wings so
they're level.

- mark

"goneill" wrote in message
...
The point is this "cartwheel scenario" has happened before.
I believe there was a case in Europe not that long ago.
gary

Indeed!

If a wing tip catches on something like tall grass, the combination of high
acceleration and CG hook can be disastrous. This sometimes results in a
flick roll and inverted crash. This is why the takeoff area of winch
operations needs to be smooth and the pilots 'spring loaded' to release if
the takeoff roll swerves.

If the takeoff surface was smooth asphalt and the glider had tip wheels or
low-friction skids then starting with a wingtip propped up on a stand or box
might not be so dangerous. It pays to be careful though.

Let me add just how sweet it is to accelerate and lift off without the
turbulence, noise and dust of a tow plane. Compared to air tow, a winch
launch area is downright civilized.

Bill Daniels

In article grOkd.76520$HA.7455@attbi_s01, Bill Daniels
writes

Let me add just how sweet it is to accelerate and lift off without the
turbulence, noise and dust of a tow plane. Compared to air tow, a winch
launch area is downright civilized.

Bill Daniels

Although not as civilised as a bungee launch...
--
Mike Lindsay

You want quiet launch?
Shoulder launch from the Mynd is pretty quiet, I am told.
GA

Having ground looped once on a winch launch (inexperienced wing runner and
tall grass) I doubt I would ever consider this on grass or dirt. A paved
surface might be okay with a very experienced pilot. A wings level assist
would be good, but might be moot if the up slack just pulled the glider off
the leveler. Holding a glider with airbrake/wheelbrake combo level doesn't
seem prudent. The more bothersome aspect is the lack of another set of eyes
to visually check the launch zone for encroachment.

Think I'd prefer to file this in my never do list (from a winch driver
perspective).
'Never winch launch unassisted'
'Never winch launch downwind'

Frank

"goneill" wrote in message
...
The point is this "cartwheel scenario" has happened before.
I believe there was a case in Europe not that long ago.
gary
"Mark Newton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"goneill" wrote:

You need to be "very very" quick on release if the down wing
does not move forward with the winch launch as the upper wing
starts flying and lifts up and can throw the glider/you into an
end over end cartwheel,

You don't start with a "down wing". You prop the wings so
they're level.

- mark

We had it happen here a few years ago.
A very experienced pilot and single ground crew driving our tow car on a
week day with no one else around.
The glider was totaled and the pilot suffered serious injuries.
Maybe ok in a 2-33.
I got away with it once in an SHK but I don't think I would try it again.
Cheers!


"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...
Having ground looped once on a winch launch (inexperienced wing runner and
tall grass) I doubt I would ever consider this on grass or dirt. A paved
surface might be okay with a very experienced pilot. A wings level assist
would be good, but might be moot if the up slack just pulled the glider
off
the leveler. Holding a glider with airbrake/wheelbrake combo level
doesn't
seem prudent. The more bothersome aspect is the lack of another set of
eyes
to visually check the launch zone for encroachment.

Think I'd prefer to file this in my never do list (from a winch driver
perspective).
'Never winch launch unassisted'
'Never winch launch downwind'

Frank

"goneill" wrote in message
...
The point is this "cartwheel scenario" has happened before.
I believe there was a case in Europe not that long ago.
gary
"Mark Newton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"goneill" wrote:

You need to be "very very" quick on release if the down wing
does not move forward with the winch launch as the upper wing
starts flying and lifts up and can throw the glider/you into an
end over end cartwheel,

You don't start with a "down wing". You prop the wings so
they're level.

- mark

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote:

Having ground looped once on a winch launch (inexperienced wing runner and
tall grass) I doubt I would ever consider this on grass or dirt. A paved
surface might be okay with a very experienced pilot. A wings level assist
would be good, but might be moot if the up slack just pulled the glider off
the leveler. Holding a glider with airbrake/wheelbrake combo level doesn't
seem prudent. The more bothersome aspect is the lack of another set of eyes
to visually check the launch zone for encroachment.

Think I'd prefer to file this in my never do list (from a winch driver
perspective).
'Never winch launch unassisted'
'Never winch launch downwind'

Frank


By us there is no wing runner for winch launch, only a wing holder. The
acceleration is so that nobody would be able to follow the glider,
nor any vehicle whose propulsion relies on friction on the ground, since
the friction coefficient will never be sufficient to provide such an acceleration.
So the wing holder could easily be replaced by any object (wing stand, tyres heap,
etc.) having the same function, although we never do it because we want to
keep the watching capability of the wing holder.

"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
...
"F.L. Whiteley" wrote:

Having ground looped once on a winch launch (inexperienced wing runner
and
tall grass) I doubt I would ever consider this on grass or dirt. A
paved
surface might be okay with a very experienced pilot. A wings level
assist
would be good, but might be moot if the up slack just pulled the glider
off
the leveler. Holding a glider with airbrake/wheelbrake combo level
doesn't
seem prudent. The more bothersome aspect is the lack of another set of
eyes
to visually check the launch zone for encroachment.

Think I'd prefer to file this in my never do list (from a winch driver
perspective).
'Never winch launch unassisted'
'Never winch launch downwind'

Frank


By us there is no wing runner for winch launch, only a wing holder. The
acceleration is so that nobody would be able to follow the glider,
nor any vehicle whose propulsion relies on friction on the ground, since
the friction coefficient will never be sufficient to provide such an
acceleration.
So the wing holder could easily be replaced by any object (wing stand,
tyres heap,
etc.) having the same function, although we never do it because we want to
keep the watching capability of the wing holder.

We don't actually commence the launch until the glider exhibits some forward
movement on the up slack. This would likely pull the wing off of such an
arrangement. We do this primarily because our winch run may cross some very
uneven surfaces depending on wind direction. This may mean the wire rope
(single run) is not quite straight initially and will displace laterally
during initial acceleration. That's one interesting aspect to winching,
that the run does not necessarily require fully improved surfaces. A winch
could quite easily be located 1000-2000ft outside of the airfield boundary
provided there aren't any obstacles.

You're right though, there's seldom any running involved.

Frank Whiteley

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...

"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
...
"F.L. Whiteley" wrote:

Having ground looped once on a winch launch (inexperienced wing runner
and
tall grass) I doubt I would ever consider this on grass or dirt. A
paved
surface might be okay with a very experienced pilot. A wings level
assist
would be good, but might be moot if the up slack just pulled the
glider
off
the leveler. Holding a glider with airbrake/wheelbrake combo level
doesn't
seem prudent. The more bothersome aspect is the lack of another set of
eyes
to visually check the launch zone for encroachment.

Think I'd prefer to file this in my never do list (from a winch driver
perspective).
'Never winch launch unassisted'
'Never winch launch downwind'

Frank


By us there is no wing runner for winch launch, only a wing holder. The
acceleration is so that nobody would be able to follow the glider,
nor any vehicle whose propulsion relies on friction on the ground, since
the friction coefficient will never be sufficient to provide such an
acceleration.
So the wing holder could easily be replaced by any object (wing stand,
tyres heap,
etc.) having the same function, although we never do it because we want
to
keep the watching capability of the wing holder.

We don't actually commence the launch until the glider exhibits some
forward
movement on the up slack. This would likely pull the wing off of such an
arrangement. We do this primarily because our winch run may cross some
very
uneven surfaces depending on wind direction. This may mean the wire rope
(single run) is not quite straight initially and will displace laterally
during initial acceleration. That's one interesting aspect to winching,
that the run does not necessarily require fully improved surfaces. A
winch
could quite easily be located 1000-2000ft outside of the airfield boundary
provided there aren't any obstacles.

You're right though, there's seldom any running involved.

Frank Whiteley



That's why a wing support POINT is a bad idea. A better idea is a support
rail that allows the glider to move forward a meter or more with the wing
tip sliding on a carpet covered rail.

A simple sawhorse made of slip together PVC pipe fittings would break down
into a small bundle. As for who removes this from the runway after takeoff,
it would have to be the winch driver after some delay.

Bill Daniels

In article ,
"F.L. Whiteley" wrote:

That's one interesting aspect to winching,
that the run does not necessarily require fully improved surfaces. A winch
could quite easily be located 1000-2000ft outside of the airfield boundary
provided there aren't any obstacles.

In fact that's what the field I learned to winch on was like. The cable
was about 5000 ft, but the runway itself was probably not much more than
1000 ft. The rest of the cable run was over rather undulating ground,
crossed by several creeks, with the track for the cable retrieve car
taking a nowhere near straight route.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------